Any liability with modifying a gun used for self defense?

[cshoff]

boingboing's response(post #10) is highly instructive and probably the one you'll most want to remember, since he has actually experienced these matters. It seems to me that anything I do to my SD gun to improve the odds of successfully protecting myself and my own from harm is not only legitimate, but the only reasonable thing to do. As others here have indicated, however, one's opponent in the courtroom isn't trying to be reasonable, but to win. What to do? All of us must decide for ourselves, I guess.

Andy

The problem becomes one where what you believe is the "reasonable thing to do", a court or a jury of your peers might find it to be negligent or reckless. Take my example of pinning the grip safety on a 1911; yes, it could certainly enhance the reliability of the gun and probably allow you to fire it even with a compromised grip, but it could also be a modification that is used to paint you in a negligent light. After all, what kind of "reckless, maniacal killer" would go so far as to knowingly and purposefully make his gun "less safe"?

My advice to my students is to change grips and sights to their liking, add a laser or light if they must, and feel free to add "skateboard tape" where appropriate. But if they just can't get along with the safety and firing systems on their gun, get rid of it and buy a gun that they CAN get along with. There are enough options out there that all of us should be able to find a factory configuration that works very well for us.

 

[38-44HD45]

All the modifications I've made to my carry guns were made to enhance my safety, and that of innocent bystanders, especially children. It's all for the children...

 

[jimmyj]

Modify and don't tell.
Priority #1 - protect your life and your family.
Everything else is less important.

 

[keith44spl]

You can justify most mods, just don't engrave "minority killer" on it.

Well Boys,
Right there ya go.

I wouldn't worry too much about mods to your carrry gun.

In civil court the 'other side' gonna bring up and question every thing from your brand of toothpaste to your hemorrhoid ointment.

They'll attack your training...

Do you train or practice regularly?
Do you shoot/train in low light condition or inclement weather?
Are you a graduate of a shooting school, etc...?

You see where this is going.

The opposition will try to paint the defendant as a high speed, low drag fully tuned highly trained 24/7 all weather killing machine.

Or Not...

Su Amigo,
Dave

 

[WR Moore]

The one thing to remember about that jury is that the other side is going to do their best to make sure there's absolutely no firearms owners/NRA members on the jury. So you're facing a group whose knowledge of firearms comes from the entertainment media.

It may be possible to educate those folks, but avoiding issues in the first place is both easier and cheaper. Although, it may require you to work harder in training to master the weapon instead of getting your weapon altered inside or outside of factory specifications.

As a couple of people have said, there's a lot of choices out there. You may be able to find something box stock that works just fine. My current carry is the only box stock firearm of any type that I own. It didn't need any mods.

 

[Lost Lake]

I wouldn't worry too much about mods to your carrry gun.

In civil court the 'other side' gonna bring up and question every thing from your brand of toothpaste to your hemorrhoid ointment.

They'll attack your training...

Do you train or practice regularly?
Do you shoot/train in low light condition or inclement weather?
Are you a graduate of a shooting school, etc...?

Su Amigo,
Dave

Excellent points.....

I would think a good lawyer (ha ha ha, that's like military intelligence! ) would even go so far as to see what you write on blogs....

All your dirty laundry will be exposed.... What about if I have the M&P sent back to S&W to have the trigger worked on? Maybe the pro trigger installed?

 

[WR Moore]

Trigger work, by an authorized/trained service person, that keeps the weight of pull within factory specification is defensible. As are better sights and stocks to help the weapon fit your hand (increase your control over the weapon).

If you must, who better than the factory? Previous ceveats apply.

 

[RufusG]

About 100% in a civil suit, with expert examination of the gun and ballistic testing of the ammo.

Okay, I'm interested in hearing more details about this. What kind of protocol do they use to examine the gun? Are you telling me they bench test every spring, and do dimensional analysis of the engagement surfaces of the moving parts? What process does a civil complainant actually have to go through to get possesion of the gun for testing? I shot my gun empty, where are they getting ammo to test? If there's any links with gory details about these scenarios I'd love to dig through them.

 

[keith44spl]

Excellent points.....

I would think a good lawyer (ha ha ha, that's like military intelligence! ) would even go so far as to see what you write on blogs....

All your dirty laundry will be exposed.... What about if I have the M&P sent back to S&W to have the trigger worked on? Maybe the pro trigger installed?

Well,
My point is just that.

Yes, you will be under the microscope with any and all loose threads picked, tugged and pulled at to the 9th degree.

I was on the stand to testify at trial on behalf of the State in a homicide.
That defense attn'y chewed on me like a bulldog, you'd thought I was the one that shot the victims.

The thing to remember is, "You can't stop a man that's in the right, that keeps on a comin'."

Go for the 'No Bill' from the grand jury.


I just don't worry about it...I guess.

Su Amigo,
Dave

 

[ogilvyspecial]

All the modifications I've made to my carry guns were made to enhance my safety, and that of innocent bystanders.

Yeah, one could argue that a lighter trigger pull made them more accurate and thus, hopefully, prevent an innocent bystander from being shot while dealing with the bad guy.

 

[WR Moore]

Okay, I'm interested in hearing more details about this. What kind of protocol do they use to examine the gun? Are you telling me they bench test every spring, and do dimensional analysis of the engagement surfaces of the moving parts? What process does a civil complainant actually have to go through to get possesion of the gun for testing? I shot my gun empty, where are they getting ammo to test? If there's any links with gory details about these scenarios I'd love to dig through them.

A court order (IIRC, subpoena duces tecum) can be obtained for surrender of the weapon. Depending upon the case, the state may have done all their work for them, they just have to subpoena the records/experts. They may send the weapon to an authorized service center, independent lab or the manufacturer to determine if it was altered from factory specification. Don't worry about the details of the process, simply know that it can be done and has been done if someone has the ambition/greed/money/political will.

Guys, about 60 miles up the road from me, a gent used a licensed automatic weapon in a self defense shooting. Because a prosecutor saw opportunity/exercised discretion, the gent dropped about $100,000 on a defense because of the nature of the weapon employed. There's a lesson here.

 

[RufusG]

A court order (IIRC, subpoena duces tecum) can be obtained for surrender of the weapon. Depending upon the case, the state may have done all their work for them, they just have to subpoena the records/experts. They may send the weapon to an authorized service center, independent lab or the manufacturer to determine if it was altered from factory specification. Don't worry about the details of the process, simply know that it can be done and has been done if someone has the ambition/greed/money/political will.
.

The reason I'm worried about the process is that your scary answer has a lot of can be, may have, may send, etc. It sounds great in theory but I'd like to see some examples that have occurred in practice. It sure sounds a lot harder to execute than to imagine.

 

[cshoff]

The reason I'm worried about the process is that your scary answer has a lot of can be, may have, may send, etc. It sounds great in theory but I'd like to see some examples that have occurred in practice. It sure sounds a lot harder to execute than to imagine.

It only has to happen to you once before the chances of it happening become 100% in your eyes.

I think the main "theme" most of us have been parroting throughout this thread is that it is always prudent to REDUCE YOUR LIABILITY WHERE YOU CAN. You have complete and total control over whether or not you make various modifications to your carry gun. The same thing applies with choosing your carry ammunition. Those two things should NEVER have the possibility of being a legal liability to you (whether rightly or wrongly), if you simply exercise good judgment in your decision making process regarding both.

In the end, there are already plenty of potential liabilities that could come up in a self-defense shooting; ones that you will have no control over and that could cause you plenty of legal headaches, that there is no need to add completely avoidable liabilities on top of them.

 

[OLDFED]

CSHOFF and boingboing nailed it! If you're not a gunsmith, the anti-gunners will chew you up. The bleeding heart jurors will find you negligent and evil. If you leave the weapon in factory condition, you'll be using the same gun as a law officer would/could carry, which would be a "good" gun. You might also have the opportunity to have the manufacturer testify FOR you, instead of against. Aside from cosmetics and qualified gunsmith work, I'd leave it alone.

 

[P&R Fan]

Well here we are more than 30 posts in and nobody has mentioned Massad Ayoob, so I guess I will. He's a member here so maybe he'll chime in. He has written about this at length in various gun magazines. One case had a guy in a shooting that was justified, but they found,in his car, away from the shooting scene, a Browning Hi-Power with the mag disconnect safety de-activated. They made a huge deal about it. I don't remember if he was convicted of a crime or found a fault in a lawsuit, but that one thing cost him thousands of dollars to make go away. Mas also has talked about cutting trigger return springs on revolvers and pinning grip safeties. There is nothing wrong with these actions, but to a shark lawyer it's blood in the water, and the blood may be yours. The question to ask yourself is, is it worth the trouble, even though it may be totally legal?
I've read numerous articles Mas has written and have learned from all of them. I also had the honor of attending one of his classes (MAG20) about a year ago where he discussed this at length. It's a real concern if you rely on a gun for self-defense.

 

[Lost Lake]

Good points all of you!!

Now, will this thinking extend to your ammunition? The Talon Body Shredders or Fast Expanding Belly Buster round? Using a ball round that may go through someone and injure a bystander? My Lord, we can worry this to death, but lawyers can take anything and blow it out of proportion.

 

[WR Moore]

If the OP had done a search, this question has been beaten beyond death on virtually all forums of this type, including this one. I expect Mas is sick of the question. You can lead a horse to water, etc.

Now then, while I only have one of the specific cases Mas discussed, noted below, in my mental data banks, I do have another cautionary tale, available online.

Go to the Philadelphia Inquirer website and search <Gerald Ung>. Go back to the original article in very early 2010 and read forward. Briefly, Mr. Ung shot one of multiple attackers in early 2010 and was tried for attempted murder, being acquitted on 16 February 2011. The version of the incident put forth by the alleged "victim" and his buds was significantly different from what could be observed on a FoxNews street cam that filmed the attack and was probably seen by everyone in Philly (and was used by the defense). Despite this, the prosecution moved forward. The media repeatedly noted the political connections of the family of the "alleged victim".

Now, if a prosecutor is willing to go forward with a case where the "victim" is obviously factually challenged, do you think an attorney is going to pass up an actual issue, regardless of how flimsy? [Like the reduced power trigger return spring that was alleged to make the weapon "more deadly"? Actual case, assertation overcome by expert testimony. More important, the jury bought the experts testimony. Note: the information was elicited from the prosecutions expert!] Mr. Ung prevailed, deservedly so, but in the process lost about a year of his life and has not (possibly will not) completed law school.

Simply put, there are some modifications that potentially give other people access to your lifesavings and posessions-like reducing trigger pull weights below factory specification, removing safety devices and letting uncertified persons modify your weapons . Do what you want, just don't be surprised at what may happen.

 

[cmort666]

It's largely a function of where you are.

In Ohio, even in liberal urban areas, so long as the modification didn't cause or appear to cause an accidental discharge, the odds of you being indicted in an otherwise good shoot because you have an extended safety or a [safe] trigger job is infinitesimal.

Here, persecuting an obvious crime victim is a big loser politically.

As far as civil liability goes, if it's a good shoot, your assailant or his survivors can go pound sand. We have immunity from civil action by the aggressor in a violent crime. Go ahead and sue. You can't collect anything. I'm betting that most home invaders don't have the wherewithal to bankroll an utterly futile lawsuit. And I think you'll search a LONG time for a personal injury lawyer who'll take a STATUTORILY unwinnable case on contingency.

 

[38-44HD45]

Excellent points.....

I would think a good lawyer (ha ha ha, that's like military intelligence! ) would even go so far as to see what you write on blogs....

All your dirty laundry will be exposed.... What about if I have the M&P sent back to S&W to have the trigger worked on? Maybe the pro trigger installed?

Ha, ha. Very funny. Next time you need an attorney, be sure you pass that along to him/her. I'm sure he'll appreciate it. No, not all your dirty laundry will be exposed. Those who do not know or understand the rules of evidence make these comments regularly on the interweb, and with few exceptions, they are wrong. The first rule of admissibility is that evidence must be relevant. Most of the BS that concerns and agitates non-lawyers on the net is unequivocally irrelevant, and therefore inadmissible.

The grand jury system is scary, and anyone who is not afraid of it is either uneducated about it, or is a fool. However, despite the fact that one can indict a ham sandwich, facts and testimony are important. I know people who were indicted because the police lied, and the DA lied or withheld evidence, and I know people who should have been indicted, and were not. Grand jury proceedings are confidential, after all.

In the context of the original question, most of the concerns about cross examination are misplaced, because they are irrelevant. Most of the factual issues are also irrelevant and inadmissible. Nonetheless, anyone who carries a modified gun needs to be able to articulate the methods and the reasons for the mods, in clear language, in a courtroom, so a grand or petit jury will understand and discount them.

 

[wihunter]

I'm no expert but if I am huddled in the bedroom closet with my family during a home invasion wait for the police to arrive and the invaders come in to the closet and I shout leave my family alone (while the 911 operator is recording) I would say I was taking a defensive posture and the shooting would be justified. I hope I am never in a situation where I would have to make the decision to pull the trigger, but I will defend my family.