Looking for a factory loading of the old fbi load but with a lighter than 158gr bullet? 125-148?
Any lighter bullet loadings in lswc-hp than 158gr ?
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ArchAngelCD
Moderator, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
It's not an FBI load without the 158gr LSWC/HP bullet. Please explain exactly what you are looking for and we might have a few ideas. (or not lol)
OP
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I should have specified ‘like’ the fbi load. I want to try a lighter (not light) bullet weight and possibly a bit less recoil than with the 158gr. to get me back on target quicker with follow ups out of my lightweight snubbies. I also just got an itch to shoot some other weights as 158 is all I ever shot or loaded. With all the modern powders/bullets etc ammo out there, I figured somebody was also working to tweak the old lswchp .38 loadings (I cannot reload at this time for a while until I can resupply). I’ve seen 158gr by Buffalo Bore and others out there; any other 125-148 bullet loads being made?
I should have specified ‘like’ the fbi load. I want to try a lighter (not light) bullet weight and possibly a bit less recoil than with the 158gr. to get me back on target quicker with follow ups out of my lightweight snubbies. I also just got an itch to shoot some other weights as 158 is all I ever shot or loaded. With all the modern powders/bullets etc ammo out there, I figured somebody was also working to tweak the old lswchp .38 loadings (I cannot reload at this time for a while until I can resupply). I’ve seen 158gr by Buffalo Bore and others out there; any other 125-148 bullet loads being made?
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Remington, Winchester and Federal all made an FBI load - with varying degrees of success.
Winchester developed the load at the request of the St Louis police department and thus the W38SPD product code. In a 4” barrel it developed about 950 FPS and was by modern standards a “+P” load, although that standard wasn’t adopted by SAAMI until 1974. It was was shortly after adopted by the Chicago, Dallas and DC police departments and it’s effectiveness in those departments piqued the interest of the FBI in 1972-73.
Once the FBI got involved there was a need for multiple suppliers and competitive bids for contracts, rather than sole source procurement. Many other smaller other departments got on board after the FBI adopted it as it came with a set of performance standards and quality assurance standards that appealed to many departments, which further increased demand and the potential market. Since the biggest buyer of the load was the FBI it ended up being called the FBI load, even though they were fairly late to the party.
Given the growing demand and government preference for competitive bid over sole source contracting, Remington got involved with its R38S12 version of the load. Many folks considered it to be better than the Winchester version.
Federal also got in the game but they had a lot of problems getting the design of the hollow cavity, alloy hardness and lubrication correct to enable a load that would give the required expansion without causing excessive leading over a 50 round course of fire. They labeled it their 38G load, and a lot of that law enforcement ammo showed up in the civilian when various lots failed government acceptance testing.
——
The Dallas County Crime Lab did a great deal of in house ballistic testing in 1972 prior to adoption of the load by the Dallas PD. They adopted the FBI load based on how it performed in the then standard 20% ballistic gelatin used by the military. But it was more or less the right ammunition adopted for totally the wrong reasons. At the time the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology was a proponent of the theory that what mattered was the size of the temporary wound cavity in the first 6” of penetration. They held that any effects past 6” were past the vital organs and thus wasted.
Dallas County could not afford the high speed camera technology to replicate that testing but instead used a 6” thick block of 20% gelatin and measured velocity on entry and exit to calculate the velocity loss and energy transfer to the block, with more energy transfer standing in for greater temporary wound cavity. The Winchester FBI load showed and energy transfer of 260 ft pounds compared to just 75 for their then standard 158 gr LRN nose load and 60 ft pounds for the 200 gr LRN.
Dallas PD found the load performed well in the field in both 2” and 4” barrels, but it had little to do with the AFIP temporary wound cavity theory. Other rounds at the time, like the 110 gr SuperVel and 110 gr Norma Hollow points posted numbers as good as or better than the FBI load but expanded very quickly in that first 6” and often failed to penetrate adequately. Before the AFIP’s theory was thrown on the trash heap at fair number of officers lost their lives due to under penetration in assailants they had shot center of mass. The FBI load didn’t have that under penetration problem, with bullets generally recovered just under the skin on the far side of the target.
That in part led to the somewhat reactionary theory that more penetration was better and the next generation of police loads were things like the Federal 147 gr 9mm +P+ hollow point, that penetrated well but often expanded poorly.
Eventually the FBI in particular looked at what worked and what didn’t in the field and then developed the current penetration standards in both bare and heavy clothing 10% ballistic gel along with barrier penetration tests by correlating what worked well in the field with gel results in the lab.
——
The irony here is that the FBI load doesn’t expand all that well by modern standards in 10% ballistic gelatin even at 4” velocities.
Part of that is no doubt the switch to 10% ballistic gel from 20% ballistic gel, but the adoption of a SAAMI standard for .38 +P loads in 1974 also meant that all later .38 +P 158 gr LSWC hollow point loads lost 50-100 FPS.
That makes the original “FBI load” hard to replicate. The bullet alloy, hollow cavity design, the lube and the slightly above “38 +P” pressures required to get adequate velocity all become issues, and then you’d need to use 20% gel to verify the results.
It’s not alone either. There are a number of rounds that performe all in the field but don’t do well in the current FBI test protocol or in 10% ballistic gel in general, like the .45 ACP Federal Hydra-Shok. Good field results, but over penetrates and under expands in 10% ballistic gelatin.
Winchester developed the load at the request of the St Louis police department and thus the W38SPD product code. In a 4” barrel it developed about 950 FPS and was by modern standards a “+P” load, although that standard wasn’t adopted by SAAMI until 1974. It was was shortly after adopted by the Chicago, Dallas and DC police departments and it’s effectiveness in those departments piqued the interest of the FBI in 1972-73.
Once the FBI got involved there was a need for multiple suppliers and competitive bids for contracts, rather than sole source procurement. Many other smaller other departments got on board after the FBI adopted it as it came with a set of performance standards and quality assurance standards that appealed to many departments, which further increased demand and the potential market. Since the biggest buyer of the load was the FBI it ended up being called the FBI load, even though they were fairly late to the party.
Given the growing demand and government preference for competitive bid over sole source contracting, Remington got involved with its R38S12 version of the load. Many folks considered it to be better than the Winchester version.
Federal also got in the game but they had a lot of problems getting the design of the hollow cavity, alloy hardness and lubrication correct to enable a load that would give the required expansion without causing excessive leading over a 50 round course of fire. They labeled it their 38G load, and a lot of that law enforcement ammo showed up in the civilian when various lots failed government acceptance testing.
——
The Dallas County Crime Lab did a great deal of in house ballistic testing in 1972 prior to adoption of the load by the Dallas PD. They adopted the FBI load based on how it performed in the then standard 20% ballistic gelatin used by the military. But it was more or less the right ammunition adopted for totally the wrong reasons. At the time the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology was a proponent of the theory that what mattered was the size of the temporary wound cavity in the first 6” of penetration. They held that any effects past 6” were past the vital organs and thus wasted.
Dallas County could not afford the high speed camera technology to replicate that testing but instead used a 6” thick block of 20% gelatin and measured velocity on entry and exit to calculate the velocity loss and energy transfer to the block, with more energy transfer standing in for greater temporary wound cavity. The Winchester FBI load showed and energy transfer of 260 ft pounds compared to just 75 for their then standard 158 gr LRN nose load and 60 ft pounds for the 200 gr LRN.
Dallas PD found the load performed well in the field in both 2” and 4” barrels, but it had little to do with the AFIP temporary wound cavity theory. Other rounds at the time, like the 110 gr SuperVel and 110 gr Norma Hollow points posted numbers as good as or better than the FBI load but expanded very quickly in that first 6” and often failed to penetrate adequately. Before the AFIP’s theory was thrown on the trash heap at fair number of officers lost their lives due to under penetration in assailants they had shot center of mass. The FBI load didn’t have that under penetration problem, with bullets generally recovered just under the skin on the far side of the target.
That in part led to the somewhat reactionary theory that more penetration was better and the next generation of police loads were things like the Federal 147 gr 9mm +P+ hollow point, that penetrated well but often expanded poorly.
Eventually the FBI in particular looked at what worked and what didn’t in the field and then developed the current penetration standards in both bare and heavy clothing 10% ballistic gel along with barrier penetration tests by correlating what worked well in the field with gel results in the lab.
——
The irony here is that the FBI load doesn’t expand all that well by modern standards in 10% ballistic gelatin even at 4” velocities.
Part of that is no doubt the switch to 10% ballistic gel from 20% ballistic gel, but the adoption of a SAAMI standard for .38 +P loads in 1974 also meant that all later .38 +P 158 gr LSWC hollow point loads lost 50-100 FPS.
That makes the original “FBI load” hard to replicate. The bullet alloy, hollow cavity design, the lube and the slightly above “38 +P” pressures required to get adequate velocity all become issues, and then you’d need to use 20% gel to verify the results.
It’s not alone either. There are a number of rounds that performe all in the field but don’t do well in the current FBI test protocol or in 10% ballistic gel in general, like the .45 ACP Federal Hydra-Shok. Good field results, but over penetrates and under expands in 10% ballistic gelatin.
SuperMan
Member
Once upon a time Federal used to have a 129 grain I believe Nyclad lead HP that had a nylon coating to reduce smoke and leading. One of my friends on Dallas PD shot someone with the round but wasn't overly happy with the results...he changed to a S&W 25-5 .45 Colt...
Bob
Bob
I believe W-W offers a 145 silvertip HP load for the 357.
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Recoil is felt differently by all of us, but I've found little difference in felt recoil between bullets in the 125-158 grain range when fired in a J-frame snub nose, airweight or steel frame. All these guns kick noticeably regardless of the ammo used, though maybe a little more with +P loads.
I don't think you can do better than a 158 grain cast loading in the .38 Special because such loads often shoot close to point-of-aim, may be more accurate than lighter bullets, and seldom is a heavy bullet a disadvantage for a defensive gun. Bullets in this weight range is what the .38 Special was designed for and it's still right.
You can get bogged down with FBI, jello shooting, heavy clothing, textbook esoterica, etc., but learning to shoot well (almost always overlooked in these threads) is a far more important consideration. Ammo selection is really very secondary.
It may hard to do now with the shortages, but consider trying four or five ammos and go with what works best for you, standard pressure or +P loads. I still like the 158 grain HP cast standard pressure or +P loadings (only if +P worked better for me than standard pressure).
If you are already a very proficient shooter or become one and want to delve into all the peripheral gimcrackery, you've certainly earned the opportunity, but you may lose all interest in it if you shoot well.
ArchAngelCD
Moderator, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
If you're looking for a good defensive .38 Special load look for the Speer 135gr Gold Dot Hollow Point round. I carry it in my light J frame. They work for me, might work well for you too.
If you want a Lead HP reload for SD use............... over factory stuff
you might look at this bullet, that fits the bill nicely for a lighter bullet.
Otherwise the factory 148 is your only other option, that people use.......... ( lead bullets )
that is just a little better than a golf club, in my opinion.
you might look at this bullet, that fits the bill nicely for a lighter bullet.
Otherwise the factory 148 is your only other option, that people use.......... ( lead bullets )
that is just a little better than a golf club, in my opinion.
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I do not think the ability of the shooter to shoot accurately is “often overlooked”, it’s just intentionally ignored by shooters who:
- don’t shoot well; and or
- have not learned the basics and practiced enough to ensure they will put the front sight on target with the sights more or less aligned under extreme stress; and or
- ignore the second point entirely as most police officers are not well enough trained to use their sights under extreme stress and thus feel it’s a waste of time.
They just feel they can buy better performance without having to put in the training or trigger time. They are dead wrong on that.
I agree completely that bullet placement matters far more than bullet design and terminal performance.
——
That said, I don’t entirely agree with your “cast bullet” assessment.
All three of the major FBI loads used a swaged lead bullet made from very soft lead with a BHN of 8-9 or less.
The average cast lead commercial bullet intended for .38 Special has a BHN of about 12 and for the 38 +P it BHN around 15 (more or less Lyman no. 2 alloy). The .357 Magnum uses harder bullets with a BHN around 18 (more or less Linotype alloy). None of them expand all that well at the 800-1000 FPS velocities attained in even a .38 +P.
Most folks won’t notice expansion or lack there of, but they will notice leading that occurs when either the bullet is 1) too soft for the operating pressure of the cartridge and strips in the rifling, or 2) is too hard to obturate and fill the bore at the available cartridge pressures and leads due to gas cutting around the base of the bullet.
Consequently you see the above ranges for hardness in commercial cast bullets, and all of these “hard cast” bullets are well known for excellent penetration and almost no expansion, even in a hollow cavity design.
When I want a hollow point bullet that will expand at .44 Magnum and .357 Magnum velocities around 1400 FPS I’ll use a 50 % Lyman no 2 alloy (or an equivalent made from 9 pounds of wheel weights and a pound of 50/50 bar solder) and 50% pure lead. The resulting alloy is around BHN 11, soft enough to expand at that velocity, with enough tin to still fill the mold well and enough antimony to avoid stripping in the rifling.
At .38 a+P velocities around 950-1000 FPS I’ll use a 25-1 alloy using 12 pounds of pure lead with 1 pound of 50/50 lead-tin bar solder. The BHN is down around 9 for decent expansion and there’s enough tin for it to cast cleanly in the mold there isn’t any antimony however so it’s a bit more sensitive stripping in the rifling. I have a 3” 686 that loves it and a 2 1/2” 686 that will key hole with it at 5 yards despite lower velocity. The difference is in the chamber and bore dimensions.
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Hornady’s 158 gr LSWCHP has a BHN of 8 and it can perform quite well at .38+P velocities in a FBI’esque handload but it needs a fairly heavy coat of liquid alox on top of the lube Hornady uses to prevent leading.
——
In short, it’s tricky stuff. A 158 gr LSWC is a better choice than a LRN for terminal effects, but commercial cast LSWC bullets won’t expand. A truncated cone or round nose flat point is probably a better choice as you get the large meplat plus easier reloading than you get with the sharp shoulder on a LSWC.
For that matter, if you handload, it’s hard to go wrong with a plated lead RNFP bullet. No leading, soft swaged lead core, and decent manners in a reload.
——-
But…to Rock quarry’s main point, the major advantage is low cost, allowing you to shoot a lot more, and it’s the increased practice, proficiency and improved bullet placement that will pay off in the end in the (unlikely) event you ever have to shoot.
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If you want a Lead HP reload for SD use............... over factory stuff
you might look at this bullet, that fits the bill nicely for a lighter bullet.
Otherwise the factory 148 is your only other option, that people use.
2-2-96 alloy runs about 10-11 for BHN and should work well at .38+P velocities.
It’s an interesting design but the are 3 months behind on orders.
If you send me a dozen I’ll be happy to to ballistic gel testing with them and post the results.
ArchAngelCD
Moderator, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
The OP specifically asked about factory ammo, not reloading components. Let's try to stay on topic.
STORMINORMAN
Member
The Federal HST Micro 130gr in 38 Special +P is a factory JHP-WC that works well in shorter barrels: would seem to have many of the characteristics the OP was seeking...
Cheers!
Cheers!
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Ok, since the goal is an effective factory load with a bullet lighter than 158 grains, two great options have already been mentioned, but I'm going to second those options.
First, Speer's 135 grain Gold Dot 38 Special +P Short Barrel, this load was proven good by the NYPD.
Second, Federal's 130 grain HST 38 Special +P, this load harkens back to the days of hollow base wadcutter bullets seated backwards. It worked then, it should work now.
First, Speer's 135 grain Gold Dot 38 Special +P Short Barrel, this load was proven good by the NYPD.
Second, Federal's 130 grain HST 38 Special +P, this load harkens back to the days of hollow base wadcutter bullets seated backwards. It worked then, it should work now.
No such animal made today............
there was the 125 Nyclad but it is not made today.
You will need to look up Copper Jacketd bullet types for something
that almost passes the "FBI" 158 Lhp bullets energy and penetration............
which is hard for a lighter bullet to do..........
but some come close.
