Anybody know brinell hardness of swaged bullets.....

[noylj]

Tired of always hearing that swaged bullets were almost pure lead, I decided to contact the bullet companies I know that made swaged lead bullets.
Note: all my casting was with 10-13 BHN for everything, including hot .44 Rem Mag. When I started shooting rifles at over 1800 fps, I just used a gas check and didn’t change alloy.

Magnus uses 97/3 alloy, for BHN 11.

Precision Bullets uses 92/6/2 and reports the bore-riding surfaces are 13-14 BHN. They also restrike after the coating process.

Hornady reports 95/5, for 13 BHN.

Zero uses 97/3, also, for BHN of 11

Speer reports it is proprietary, and they “have a max velocity of 1100 fps.”

 

[BC38]

Tired of always hearing that swaged bullets were almost pure lead, I decided to contact the bullet companies I know that made swaged lead bullets.
Note: all my casting was with 10-13 BHN for everything, including hot .44 Rem Mag. When I started shooting rifles at over 1800 fps, I just used a gas check and didn’t change alloy.

Magnus uses 97/3 alloy, for BHN 11.

Precision Bullets uses 92/6/2 and reports the bore-riding surfaces are 13-14 BHN. They also restrike after the coating process.

Hornady reports 95/5, for 13 BHN.

Zero uses 97/3, also, for BHN of 11

Speer reports it is proprietary, and they “have a max velocity of 1100 fps.”

Good info - especially the part about the Speer product since that is one of the ones I am going to be using and what I originally asked about when I resurrected this old zombie thread.

THANKS!

 

[rwsmith]

Ditto.....

Yes indeed. Great info.

I had no idea that swaged lead was that hard. What a difference a few brinell units make. Pure lead is 5 brinell.

 

[THE PILGRIM]

Swaged bullets are hard!
That explains why it’s so difficult to clean the lead from the
bore after you Shoot Them!

 

[Carrier]

I shoot a lot of Hornady Frontier HBWC, SWC and Speer SWC and in my 14-3 and 28-3 I have zero leading issues as they are all light Bullseye or 231 loads. My 686-6 though leads somewhat with them.

 

[Regaj]

Old thread!

Pure lead is BHN 5.

For duplicating the "FBI Load" you want a LSWCHP that is very soft... pure lead. BHN 5.

For duplicating the Buffalo Bore 20A "Heavy" load you, likewise, want a LSWCHP that is very soft... except that in that case you also want it gas-checked. Rim Rock, who actually makes the bullets Buffalo Bore uses in that load, clearly state that their bullets are BHN 5.

I've always assumed Hornady and Speer swaged bullets are BHN 5 or thereabouts. But they've always been pretty tight-lipped about that. Not doubting what you were told, noylj, but I confess I'd be completely and utterly shocked to find Hornady is BHN 13! Heck, a bullet that has a BHN of 10 is four times as hard as a bullet that is BHN 5. They've never felt that hard to me. I think I have an old box or two back on the shelf somewhere... if I do maybe I'll run 'em through the hardness tester this weekend.

The dirty little secret of the commercial cast bullet world is the need for extremely hard lead bullets - BHN's of 18, 20, and on north. The real reason they make their bullets that hard isn't because it makes them better... they make them that hard so their bullets won't become dented and deformed during shipping. But, hey, why get in the way of a good story! A good marketing department has to earn its keep!

But you'd have surprised Elmer Keith and Skeeter Skelton and the rest of those boys who mostly dropped 10-13 BHN bullets from their moulds.

 

[WR Moore]

The Speer LSWCHP has a larger cavity than the Horanaday. I've been able to run the Hornadays ~800 f/s with no leading. Frankly, I"ve never been able to drive either fast enough to get significant expansion. Judging by the penetration, neither can Federal in factory loads. I've never been able to capture one to check.

 

[Regaj]

FWIW, I went ahead and tested the several commercial swaged bullets I had on hand.

Speer 38 Cal (.358) Lead SWC, 158 gr. (#4624): BHN 5.5-6

Hornady 38 Cal (.358) Lead SWC/HP 158 gr. (#3589): BHN 5.5-6

Rim Rock 38 Cal (.358) Lead SWC/HP w/GC 158 gr. (the bullet Buffalo Bore uses in their 20A load): BHN 5.2

Speer 44 Cal (.430) Lead SWC 240 gr. (#4660): BHN 7.5

The Speer 44 Cal came in slightly higher than I expected (I see no reason Speer would use a different lead composition in their 44 line than their 38 line). The others are in line with my expectations. I may re-run the Hornady test the next time I have the stuff out.

The Rim Rock bullets are fresh. The Speer and Hornady bullets are all quite old (probably north of 30 years). That shouldn't matter... cast bullets will harden a couple BHN points as they age (with most of that happening in the first few months). Swaged bullets, to my knowledge, do not.

The bottom line is that commercially swaged bullets are usually going to be very soft - approaching pure lead (which has a BHN of 5).

 

[BC38]

FWIW, I went ahead and tested the several commercial swaged bullets I had on hand.

Speer 38 Cal (.358) Lead SWC, 158 gr. (#4624): BHN 5.5-6

Hornady 38 Cal (.358) Lead SWC/HP 158 gr. (#3589): BHN 5.5-6

Rim Rock 38 Cal (.358) Lead SWC/HP w/GC 158 gr. (the bullet Buffalo Bore uses in their 20A load): BHN 5.2

Speer 44 Cal (.430) Lead SWC 240 gr. (#4660): BHN 7.5

The Speer 44 Cal came in slightly higher than I expected (I see no reason Speer would use a different lead composition in their 44 line than their 38 line). The others are in line with my expectations. I may re-run the Hornady test the next time I have the stuff out.

The Rim Rock bullets are fresh. The Speer and Hornady bullets are all quite old (probably north of 30 years). That shouldn't matter... cast bullets will harden a couple BHN points as they age (with most of that happening in the first few months). Swaged bullets, to my knowledge, do not.

The bottom line is that commercially swaged bullets are usually going to be very soft - approaching pure lead (which has a BHN of 5).

More good info - thanks!

I'm going to lube the Speers I have with the 60/40 Alox/Liquid Johnson's Floor Wax recipe (Red's Liquid Lube) that is discussed on the Cast Boolits website in hopes of eliminating any possibility of leading. I won't be pushing them to the previously stated max of 1100 FPS - probably more in the 900-1000 FPS range.

 

[sniper]

Thanx for resurrecting this old thread! Great information!
I load my lead bullets ("J" woid, cast or swaged) to ~ 900-1,000 fps....357 brass, standard primers, "reasonable" powders; Unique, Universal; Wanting to try Herco, AA#5 or HS-6. That level of fps does all I will likely need it to, is pleasant to shoot and leading is less of a problem! I had no idea that the Speer or Hornady swaged projectiles were that soft!

 

[Qc Pistolero]

I swage my own and 8 to 10 is way too hard.More like 6.My kit can make wc and swc in flat or hollow base and,for the swc I can make hollow point.I've pushed them at a little over 800fps without no leading at all and this in more than one gun.I must admit that I haven't pushed them to the limit just to find when they'll begin to lead.Masochist I ain't!

 

[P.W.Herman]

I'm shooting hornady 240gr swaged bullets in .44 sp. at less than 800fps (650-700fps range) with no leading problems. Also some 200gr 20/1 at less than 800fps. These both shoot better than hard cast. I believe I was having trouble with hard cast because of the beveled edge....lots of leading.
I'm shooting .454's in a Colt New service in 20/1 as well. Leading problems with it are over as well, Started out with .452's and leading was horrific. In this case I found the older Colts were using a larger bore back before WWII.
I general, I find any lead bullet, either hard cast or soft with a beveled base to be an invitation to leading no matter how hard or slow I push it, probably just me.... As others have stated, proper bullet to bore size is very important. I slug everything these days before I start loading for it.