Anyone carry a full-size M&P or Sigma?

[Prioris]

Originally posted by WR Moore:
By NYPD stats-corrected for errors-the average expenditure is 4.7 rounds per bad guy. That doesn't leave you much margin with 10 rounds. Remember: No plan survives contact with the enemy.

4.7 rounds per bad guy? If our hypothetical good guy NEEDS five rounds to put one hypothetical bad guy down, either the BG is doped on PCP or wearing armor, in which case the GG is pretty much hosed no matter what he/she is carrying, or the GG missed with the first three, in which case he/she needs not to be licensed. If the GG is simply dumping five rounds into the BG for insurance purposes, that also raises major questions about his/her fitness to hold a license, because it should have been clear after the first two that the BG was or was not going to continue causing trouble; the additional three just open the door to unnecessary-force charges, to say nothing of the complete and utter ruin the GG would face if, God forbid, he/she hit a bystander through a miss or a bullet overpenetration.

Then again, if those figures are meant to be representative of NYPD officer-involved shootings and not CPL-holder-involved shootings, the quoted number makes a little more sense. God bless 'em, but there do seem to be a lot of law enforcement agencies that subscribe a little too enthusiastically to the "curtain of lead" theory of pistol marksmanship. DPD, for a notable local example.

Other reasons to consider a reload and a second gun. Breakage-ever break a firing pin or extractor? I've had an extractor break during a match. Sobering experience. Also, if your normal shooting hand gets dinged. Yeah, the gun may stay operable, gonna bet your life on it?

I understand where you're coming from, but that's a bit of a slippery slope to start down. At what point do you define "enough" redundant backups, and more to the point, how do you conceal all this on your person without looking like Dirty Harriet? One pistol, a magazine and a pocketknife is about the maximum I can manage, and even that is rather pushing it; realistically, it's a pistol and a mag OR a knife, not both. In my daily life, the knife tends to be more useful, so the mag gets left home. Moreover, at least in this state, the law on CPL deadly force is pretty specific: while I don't have to retreat first, I can only draw to defend myself from the direct, immediate threat of death, maiming or rape. All of those are one- or at max, two-offender crimes. If I'm beset by a dozen heavily armed men, I likely have bigger problems than whether or not my weapon is going to break.

::shrugs:: Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

 

[WR Moore]

Originally posted by Prioris:

4.7 rounds per bad guy? If our hypothetical good guy NEEDS five rounds to put one hypothetical bad guy down, either the BG is doped on PCP or wearing armor, in which case the GG is pretty much hosed no matter what he/she is carrying, or the GG missed with the first three, in which case he/she needs not to be licensed. If the GG is simply dumping five rounds into the BG for insurance purposes, that also raises major questions about his/her fitness to hold a license, because it should have been clear after the first two that the BG was or was not going to continue causing trouble; the additional three just open the door to unnecessary-force charges,
[ QUOTE]

Yes, those stats were for NYPD members. However, you show a very much range centric perspective. You engage the adversary until THEY decide they're out of the fight, not according your expectations of what it takes to take someone out of the fight. To do otherwise will be hazardous to your health. The real world is a whole lot messier than most expect.

The expectation that CPL holders are automatically going to be better shots than law enforcement is widespread. Unfortunately, it can't be supported by statistics. NYPD files SOP-9 reports for every discharge of a firearm on or off duty. There is no such database for civilians. Besides which, there are more folks who don't practice than those who do and even many who practice are not alert to their surroundings. If you start behind the curve, life is tough.

Your expectations of the number of opponents you will face is also not supported by recent events. Multiple participants are much more likely than in the past (approaching 50%)and the level of violence they're willing to use is much greater.

 

[MountainSmith]

I used to think five rounds from my J frame would be enough for anything I would probably face. Then I read a story about a CCL holder who came to the aid of a law enforcement officer who was pinned down by multiple bad guys. He went through two mags if I remember right, and went back to his vehicle for more, just trying to keep the BG's off the officer. I know this is an unusual situation, but who is to say you might not get into an unusual situation yourself? I now carry an M&P with a 17 round mag and have a spare as well.

 

[Wyatt Earp]

Originally posted by Prioris:
If our hypothetical good guy NEEDS five rounds to put one hypothetical bad guy down, either the BG is doped on PCP or wearing armor, in which case the GG is pretty much hosed no matter what he/she is carrying, or the GG missed with the first three, in which case he/she needs not to be licensed. If the GG is simply dumping five rounds into the BG for insurance purposes, that also raises major questions about his/her fitness to hold a license, because it should have been clear after the first two that the BG was or was not going to continue causing trouble; the additional three just open the door to unnecessary-force charges, to say nothing of the complete and utter ruin the GG would face if, God forbid, he/she hit a bystander through a miss or a bullet overpenetration.

You really need to review the mound of evidence that has plenty of assailants carrying the fight with two, three, and even four handgun bullets in them without the aid of armor or hallucinogenic drugs.

You can delude yourself that the "double tap and asses" square range bullshit works on the street. I don't care, becuase it's your life on the line.

Me? I'm shooting them to the ground.

 

[flop-shank]

If possible, I carry twice as much ammo (already loaded in my New York reloads) as I think I might ever possibly need. I think anyone who CCWs should read about the crazy guy with a rifle that Bill Allard killed and also read up on Lance Thomas and his gunfights. There was a lot of lead flying. As Wyatt said, It's everyone's call for themselves. They have to live, or die, with the consequences.

 

[ZO6Vettever]

My neighbor is retired NYPD, in a gunfight he had a S&W 5 shot wheel gun break. Don't know what model or what broke but it became a rock real fast. He hit the BG good with the only shot that worked and he was shot 4 times before the BG went to hell. Lucky for him no fatally placed hits on him. It's a good thing most BG's don't get any range time and shoot whatever gun and rounds they can get their hands on.