Anyone here load for the heavy rifles?

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

I know the original factory loads are fairly mild compared to a lot of other big bore cartridges, but the newer loads for the 404 are substantially more powerful. Lets notforget that it is the most popular elephant round in Africa either. It just hasn't got all the attention here like the .416 Rigby, mostly because of Robert Ruark's writings about Harry Selby and his .416 rigby.

One can follow this argument at length by visiting ACCURATERELOADING.COM and going back a few years. Although the .416 Rigby is factory-loaded to very reasonable pressure levels, and can be mistakenly hot-rodded to much higher levels in most rifles, it is clear that the Jeffery is in the same league, at least in factory loads, which are about as fast as a sane man needs. The main advantage of the Rigby, aside from the name and the low pressure, is that .416 bullets are a little easier to come by in this country.

There is nothing wrong with a .404 Jeffery.

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

Now that Hornady is making brass, bullets, and ammo, and a few gun companies have tooled up to make the .404, it'll grow in popularity, and availability here too. The rounds feed through an action just like two pieces of wet glass rubbing together.....smoooooth.

 

[canoe on the yukon]

Gentelmen,

My apologies to those taking exception to my placing the 404 Jeffery in a "slightly"lesser status.I am very well aquainted with the 404 Jeffery.I have loaded it,I know it's handloading potential and I'm very aware of it's history in Africa.You are therefore....preaching to the choir.

When I was trying to convey the standards of semi-heavies,I was attempting to give one a general idea.As you know,the original 404 Jeffery specs are approximately 2100 fps with 400 grains.This is in a general class of heavy-medium rifles.When I refer to a caliber,I refer to it's more standard load,not it's handloading potential.

 

[canoe on the yukon]

An added thought......I don't mean to exclude certain calibers that may be favorites of someone.That's not my intent.Handloading in modern rifles can bring the 404 Jeffery well above it's original specs.The same is certainly true of the 416 Rigby.When loaded to it's potential,it's certainly in a class with the 416 Rigby,etc.

There is no caliber that is more universally used in Africa than the 375 H&H and volumes can be said of it but it's nonetheless not in the heavy rifle class.

 

[canoe on the yukon]

With the 404 Jeffery,425 Westly Richards included as well as all the various 416's,factory and wildcat,(416 rigby,remington,hoffman,taylor,etc)....anyone care to share any load data that they use?

I've loaded the 404 Jeffery,416 Rigby,416 Remington as well as the 458 Win mag,458 Lott and 460 Weatherby.

At present,I still have and load for the 416 Rem,458 Win and 460 WBY.

I'm quite interested in the 500 Jeffery and very interested in the 577 Nitro Express but have never loaded for either.I have shot them,of course but they belonged to other people.

Good doubles are out of my price range.

I would especially like to shoot a good 8 bore.

 

[Waldo]

Canoe, Please tell me about your 460 Weatherby loads. Have you ever tried to load it down to 45-70 or 458 Win levels or with cast bullets? I got mine back in the early 1980s from the Bank of Boulder. Played around with it some then but have not fooled with it since. I am now retired and have some time to experiment with it and would appreciate your insight. Don't see many articles on handloading for the 460 Weatherby. Thanks, Waldo

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

Waldo-

There is a good article in the book Big Bore Rifles and Cartridges from Wolffe Publishing, by Bob Hagel. Page 328 start.
On page 329 he lists loads that are approx. equal to .458 Win.

85 grains of IMR 4064 under the 500 grain Hornady gave 2102 FPS from his 26" Wtby rifle.

80 grains of IMR 3031 under the 500 grain Hornady gave
2066 FPS.

85 grains of IMR 4064 under the 350 Hornady gave 2183 FPS with poor accuracy.

80 grains of IMR 3031 under the 350 Hornady gave 2120 FPS with good accuracy.



No loads listed in the chart for cast bullets.

 

[canoe on the yukon]

Waldo,

I've never desired to use reduced loads in the 460 Weatherby.There are lesser rifles for that.The 460 weatherby is (even though it's only a 458 bullet)in the category of heavies.I would actually much rather use a larger bore for that power level but it's velocity nonetheless puts it in that class.

As I'm sure you know,it's essentially a belted and necked up 416 Rigby case.There are numerous wildcats that have been assembled with that platform but the WBY has the distinction of being loaded to a higher pressure.(even from factory loads).Anyone can push the envelope with any version "to a point".

The 460 Wby (with full power) is definately not a cast bullet rifle.There are a great many good 458 bullets which are suitable but one should be careful that it's well constructed.Do not use bullets which were constructed for 45/70(etc) in mind.

Premium bullets from custom and semi custom bullet makers are excellent but for practice,etc,their expense is unecessary.As far as standard factory bullets are concerned,the Hornady's are excellent.The solids are very good but unecessary for anything this side of the big ones of Africa.In my opinion the Hornady 500 gr interlock soft point is excellent for" most"heavy rifle use.

These (500 gr)can be driven to very nearly 2700 fps from the 460 WBY but are considered to be somewhat excessive.I prefer to keep it around 2400-2500 fps.The load I will give below chrono's very slightly below 2500fps from my rifle.

The powders which have given me the best overall results are 4350 and IMR-4831(not H-4831-it's a bit too slow.)

I like the following.....


460 WBY brass (norma made)

500 gr Hornady interlock soft point

112.0 gr of H-4350.......this is not max.

Federal 215M

For special use,a premium bullet is highly recommended.

 

[Engineer1911]

I reload for a 11 # Rem 700 .308 Winchester using 168 grain BTHP and a Taylor Arms 45-70 Quigley.

The most accurate 45-70 load was 500 gr Barnes HP with IMR 4198 or 450 gr Barnes HP. I bought the Barnes bullets for 6¢ each 3 months ago. My usual load is a Saeco cast spire point bullet 410 grains with AA 5744 powder. It will regularily shoot clover leafs at 100 yards but using a large diameter bullet does help.

Does this qualify for heavy rifles?

 

[Waldo]

Gun for fun,
Thank you. I was not aware of that book. I ordered it last night from Amazon. I have always liked Bob Hagel and I have another of his books.

Canoe
I think there are not many people with .460 Weatherby rifles. I have never seen much data on light loads for it. However shooting it is brutal. It is a fine rifle and I would like to get more use out of it. I guess shooting it with light loads is about the same idea as using .38 Specials in a .357 Magnum or .44 Specials in a .44 Magnum. I have never experimented with light loads in the .460 because I have always heard and been afraid of the possibility of detonation. Maybe I will find the lightest bullet suitable and stick to the starting loads. You are right about using the right bullet. When I first got the gun, I wrote to one of the bullet makers and asked them why there was no data on using one of their light .458 rifle bullets in the .460. They wrote back and said it would come apart at .460 velocities.

My thanks to both of you for responding. Waldo

 

[canoe on the yukon]

Waldo,

The Lyman # 48 is a good source of data for reduced loads.It also gives cast bullet data for the 460 WBY.This,of course,is with greatly reduced loads which is not the subject of the thread.

Good luck.

 

[Snowwolfe]

I reload for a 11 # Rem 700 .308 Winchester using 168 grain BTHP and a Taylor Arms 45-70 Quigley.

The most accurate 45-70 load was 500 gr Barnes HP with IMR 4198 or 450 gr Barnes HP. I bought the Barnes bullets for 6¢ each 3 months ago. My usual load is a Saeco cast spire point bullet 410 grains with AA 5744 powder. It will regularily shoot clover leafs at 100 yards but using a large diameter bullet does help.

Does this qualify for heavy rifles?

Nope, 45-70's are not considered heavies

 

[canoe on the yukon]

Some seem to be somewhat disgruntled that a cartridge or load that they like is not considered a heavy rifle.The term "heavy" may seem a little hazy to some so I'd like to give some clarity.

In very general terms (and some loads seem to be in somewhat of a grey area),heavies might be described this way.(it matters not what has killed things).......

A 400 grain bullet that has a sectional density of 300 or more that is moving at least 2400 FPS can be described as a Light Heavy.After that,it becomes a matter of degrees with a judgement call but as a very general description,heavies don't really begin until a 500 grain bullet of a sectional density of 300 or more is moving at approximately 2100 fps which can be described as a medium heavy.

After that,it becomes a matter of degrees.I personally don't think of a rifle as a true heavy until the same 500 grain bullet of a sectional density of 300 or more is moving about 2400fps.There are,of course,those which go much farthur.

There are those who would say that heavies don't begin until approximatley 500 Jeffery level is attained.I would prefer not to nitpick about exactly where the line is drawn.

 

[perrazi]

always thought the heavies began at 460 weatherby and got larger from there.

 

[canoe on the yukon]

always thought the heavies began at 460 weatherby and got larger from there.

I have no way of knowing whether you're being facetious,sarcastic or sincere but many would agree with that.The 458 diameter bullet is not considered a large bore by everyone.

As I said,I don't want to nitpick about where one draws the line between categories but I do think that the description of "cartridges in the class of 416 Rigby and 458 Win mag being the minimum"was clear enough.That was given at the very first post that started the thread.To leave no doubts,I also said that the 375 H&H (as good as it is) is not a heavy and also that reduced loads are not relevant in the discussion.

In my personal view,heavy rifles begin with the general class of 416 Rigby,etc (being sort of light heavy) and move upwards from there to what some would call a super heavy(which to me means 577 Nitro Express and above.)

I never even insinuated that this discussion would be relevant to everyone,most or even many.

 

[DonD]

I bought the Barnes bullets for 6¢ each 3 months ago.

Where did you get that steal of a deal, Barnes slugs for 6 cents, you sure you didn't mean 60 cents? Don

 

[Engineer1911]

Barnes bullets for 6¢ ( $0.06 ) each

Kenny Jarrett Rifles had a "Clean the Shelf" bullet sale. I bought several partial boxes of Barnes bullets for $.06 each. And yes I wasted everyone of the .458 bullets in my Quigley. I have never seen such a dead bullseye -- absolutely shredded.

I think my 11 pound Rem 700 is a heavy rifle. I don't want to carry it any farther than to the shooting bench or nearest prairie dog mound. I admire you gentleman who shoot large caliber, high velocity rifles but that is not for me.

 

[DonD]

Kenny Jarrett Rifles had a "Clean the Shelf" bullet sale. I bought several partial boxes of Barnes bullets for $.06 each.

That IS a deal, I would guess that you smiled all the way to the range every time. Don

 

[perrazi]

canoe, was being sincere about the 460 statement and only because of the velocity. a lot of african hunters,at least in times past, seemed to think that heavy meant 470 nitro and up.

 

[Leonard]

416 Remington, 416 Rigby, 460 Wby ( loaded down to 2400 fps), 470, 475 # 2 Jeffrey (my favorite), 475 # 2, 500 A Square, 577.

Do not care much for a 375

Always felt the 460 was way too much case for .45 caliber made a better .50 caliber weapon

Len

PS my idea of a stopping caliber as opposed to a big bore hunting caliber starts at .50