ANYONE LOADING THE S&W 44 AMERICAN?

[jleiper]

Joe, what would be the proper method to measure the bore ? I have 4 chambered in 44A including a beauty original I just purchased, 2 more in nice condition and a Transition that had been factory refurbished by S&W in 1926. How about I measure all of them ?

I have a short (but quality) set of machinist's tools and gauges, plus a a full set of mechanics tool that include engine rebuilder's tools, inside micrometer sets, e.g. for cylinder bore but he smallest those inside mikes go to is appx 1".

I also have a nice set of bronze jags but not sure how accurate the specs on the jags would be (it is a Midway set IIRC).

Can you recommend a quality inside micrometer set made specifically for for firearms, that won't break the bank ? Preferably as set that I can use on other projects in addition to the 44A ? Thanks.

I would try an expanding small hole gauge. Starrett tools makes a set or they can be bought individually. 829D Small Hole Gage
It will still be difficult to measure as these have 5 lands and grooves, i.e. you cannot just measure across the dia.

I was going to start the measurement of mine after Turkey day - I have to dig the gauges out of my old machinist's box. Measure your early Americans and I will measure the range of my Russian Contracts.
Everybody have a good Thanksgiving!
Joe

 

[sw44russ]

There is also the method of 'Slugging' the Bore. Some take a slightly oversized soft lead bullet or even a Fishing Sinker and force it through the barrel with a piece of Dowel and a hammer. The 'Slug' can then be measured and you will get accurate specs for both Grooves and Lands - this is important because you want both to work out the ideal sized Projectile. Guys with Guns that can vary in Bore Size do this before ordering their Bullet Mould for casting.

I always thought this was a pretty extreme way of doing it. There is apparently a Product called 'Cerrosafe' which is a soft putty type stuff (?) you can push into the bore and it will harden so you can push it out and it gives you a reverse mould that can then be measured. Normal Automotive Body Filler is also something that can be used. A smear of vegetable oil can be used to ensure easy removal without damage to your 'Slug' - or your bore.

You can measure with a pair of Vernier Calipers; but as Grooves and Lands are often opposite each other, some guesswork comes into play. You will be hard pressed to find a place in most Bores where you can get an accurate measurement straight across and find either Land to Land or Groove to Groove, so the Slug is probably the way to go.

 

[Jaymo]

You'll find everything you need for the .44 American by Buffalo Arms Co.

W&S

I have a box of .44 Russian ammo from them.
I got it cheap, at the LGS, during the 2013 panic.
I couldn't find .44 Spl anywhere, and wanted to supplement my supply of handloads.

 

[Skeetr57]

Cerrosafe is not a "soft putty like substance". It is a metal alloy with a very low melting point. I can be melted in boiling water, so does not require any special equipment. The unique feature of the particular Cerrosafe alloy is its characteristic of returning to the exact bore or chamber size after a specific time so that the cast can be removed, then measured very precisely, if you have the correct micrometer for measuring a 5 sided object. Such mikes are available, but are expensive. They are used to measure reamers and drills with odd numbered flutes. I am not aware of any inside mikes for measuring bores with odd numbered lands and grooves. For revolvers, it is probably adequate to measure the mouths of the chambers to determine correct bullet diameter, and that can be done a number of ways.

 

[jleiper]

My problem is that I am going to have to measure about 20 revolvers to get figures for the S&W as well as the Ludwig Loewe and Tula production. I have the examples so that is not the problem, but time is.
I think I can get good measurements with the tool I specified. I have never worked as a practicing gunsmith, but I have worked as a tool room machinist.
The casting or slugging procedures work well but are time consuming. I will probably test my measurements by slugging a sample and comparing the results.
Joe

 

[sw44russ]

Cerrosafe is not a "soft putty like substance". It is a metal alloy with a very low melting point. I can be melted in boiling water, so does not require any special equipment. The unique feature of the particular Cerrosafe alloy is its characteristic of returning to the exact bore or chamber size after a specific time so that the cast can be removed, then measured very precisely, if you have the correct micrometer for measuring a 5 sided object. Such mikes are available, but are expensive. They are used to measure reamers and drills with odd numbered flutes. I am not aware of any inside mikes for measuring bores with odd numbered lands and grooves. For revolvers, it is probably adequate to measure the mouths of the chambers to determine correct bullet diameter, and that can be done a number of ways.

Thanks for that way more accurate description Skeetr; I obviously only had a vague idea of what the stuff is and I'm even more taken with the idea of now I'm properly informed.

Maybe a well equipped Machine Shop would have the correct Micrometer to do the right measurements. It would seem one would get a very precise result with this method.

Joe having the relevant experience would also no doubt get the Measurements as close as anyone would.

It will interesting to see some Figures and ascertain if much variation exists in the American Bores and if the Nominal .434'' is accurate..

 

[rct269]

Rx for black powder fouling (if there's room in your case): Corn meal on top of the powder. Some's good, more's better, and too much is just right!

Ralph Tremaine

 

[model3sw]

Rx for black powder fouling (if there's room in your case): Corn meal on top of the powder. Some's good, more's better, and too much is just right!

Ralph Tremaine

Ralph. You know i respect your advice. How, exactly, does that work ? I had read (can't remember where or when) dry patching the powder then grease / lube of some sort. Patch to separate the powder from the lube or grease. Doesn't make sense as the grease / lube with heat would melt, I'd think, making the powder inert.

Since this American thread started, there are a bunch of us on a "roll" who would like to load something safe for these beauties. An old friend (Tom Blair, RIP) of mine used to shoot his old American, Russians and NM3s regularly. I have a handful of his American loads. Looks like I'm going to have to reverse engineer the loads he gifted me to the best of my ability

It seems like us yungguns are making a big deal out of something the old timers loaded regularly without a second thought.

I think I'm not alone when I say that "our" caution is not wanting to blow up an old beauty, some of which are worth a few dollars more that we earn in a month. ... while not even considering we might lose body parts in the process. LOL !

Like the lawyer screaming at a woman for clipping off the door on his new Mercedes that HE opened on the street side of heavy traffic yelling "LOOK WHAT YOU DID TO MY BRAND NEW MERCEDES" to which she responds .... but your ARM !. Your ARM has been torn off !!! To which HE quickly quips ... " AND MY ROLEX. TOO !!!!"

 

[model3sw]

I have shot Snider too and found the same thing; the Round Ball was the most accurate projectile. I think you could be onto something with the idea of loading a round ball for 44 S&W American. Lee and Lyman both make Round Ball Moulds in .434

This post is 7 years old now and I'm wondering if any more has been done that you know of in this area. I know Buffalo Arms has all the gear; but like you, I don't see much value in spending a fortune to make ammo you will use once in a blue moon.

I'm leaning towards starting with "gallery" loads with a round ball and working my way up from there. I think your concept of slugging the barrel is good ideal.

I found this guy ... check it out. So Simple. he forgets one step, he unloads a live round, using the case for melting lead in to but never mentions that the primer should be taken out, first. You can see from the shape when he's done that the primer pocket was empty but can you imaging using a burner to heat up a casing while melting lead into it with a live primer ? Is it just me or did I miss something here. See Part 1 and part 2

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuNoo4m6jso[/ame]

 

[rct269]

Corn Meal------------"How, exactly, does that work?"

That's an excellent question, Sal-----I really don't know--kind'a like a scouring powder, I reckon. Here's how I came to know what I know: I was on a kick to demonstrate/prove the further a bullet traveled in the throat before engaging the rifling, the worse the accuracy. (I also collect Rugers---"Old Model Single Actions" (1953-1973). I have all of them (and the variations which interest me)---except the Lightweights---which God and I agreed weren't real guns.) An "Old Army" (cap & ball) was pressed into service. The first load was 20 grains of FFFG black powder (measured, not weighed), somebody's greased wad (Uncle Mike's maybe), and a Speer .457" round ball. That load seats DEEEEEEEEEEEP within the chamber. That load produced a very unsatisfying 6 shot group of about 4" at 25 yards. Fast forward to the same load, with 20 grains of corn meal on top of the powder. That load seats essentially flush with the end of the chamber---call it zero throat---or damn near. That load produces 6 shot groups of one ragged hole---substantially covered with a quarter.

Along the way--loads with 5, 10, and 15 grains of corn meal produced a markedly cleaner revolver---inside AND out. When I had proven what I set out to prove, then I just sat and shot---at several different distances-----with the GOOD load. I don't know how many rounds I fired----A BUNCH. The gun stayed "clean"---which is to say it was dirty---but still shooting with no problems of any sort---smooth as silk! I was a believer---both as respects the throat business---AND the corn meal.

Try it, you'll like it!!

Ralph Tremaine

Having now done the math, the gun was fired 6 times with each load-----6 with no corn meal, and 24 with (the four differing amounts of corn meal). The last six loads (the GOOOOOOOOD group) were fired from the gun dirtied by all those which preceded it. The unknown number of loads fired after that (each with 20 grains of corn meal) were also fired from a dirty gun---which is to say the gun got cleaned once--------when I was through shooting it. It's been sitting on the shelf ever since----good as new!! And it's worth noting the bore, while certainly not squeaky clean, wasn't even remotely crudded up. It just looked like an everyday dirty bore---one used with smokeless powder.

It has popped into my mind, that while nobody might give a rat, I may have misled you about these loads. The first was as stated---powder/wad/ball. All those following were almost certainly powder/corn meal/wad/ball---not because I remember, but only because it makes sense. To put the wad on the powder, then the corn meal means I would have to have seated the wad on the powder (to make room for the corn meal). THAT would have been a large pain in the butt---and I don't do pains---large or small.

 

[cwneely]

Would like to hear you experience loading and shooting. Thanks...........Will

I have loaded for the 44 Evans which I am pretty sure is just a longer version of the 44 American and I believe the same techniques will work. It does require some equipment though. I start with 44 magnum brass just because it is so available. 44 Russian would probably be easier. Load with black powder and a .429 bullet, do not crimp. I then force the cartridge into a 44 American die with an arbor press. It will stop at the solid head. Chuck it in a lathe collet and turn the head down to the same diameter as the body of the case. The bullet will have been transformed into a heeled projectile of exactly the right dimensions. I leave one grease groove ahead of the case mouth. I believe that the reduced base will expand to fill the grooves but even if it does not it will work pretty well.