Anyone shoot S&W's in .44 Russian?

[dan_is_dea_mann]

I am getting an antique top break in .44 russian (well put an ad in 'classifieds'..) and was wondering how these things shoot. Anyone have any loads or pictures of shot up targets?

 

[dan_is_dea_mann]

I am getting an antique top break in .44 russian (well put an ad in 'classifieds'..) and was wondering how these things shoot. Anyone have any loads or pictures of shot up targets?

 

[Win38-55]

Dan, you probably saw my post here http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/540103904/m/6691075362 but I mention it just in case you didn't. Some forum members may have an antique S&W 44 Russian that they might be interested in selling to you. You can also check out http://www.armchairgunshow.com/otsBA_S_W_Americans.htm

 

[JohnHenryD]

Accutately.

 

[JohnHenryD]

Oops. Very accurate.

 

[dan_is_dea_mann]

Nope, can't say I saw that one, thanks again Kirk.

 

[mxbob]

I shoot the Black Hills cowboy factory loads in mine. They are mild and quite accurate. I intend to reaload at some point but haven't yet. I have two of these and both are great shooters.
Bob Ray

 

[Win38-55]

Dan, here's a couple more threads that might be of interest to you.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5401039...=453100178#453100178

http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5401039...851017652#6851017652

http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5401039...931037532#7931037532

 

[dan_is_dea_mann]

Thanks Kirk

Also if anyone has any antique .44 russians please tell me! Looking to buy one, email me on my public profile email: [email protected]

 

[JimSupica]

Most Model Threes will shoot better than I can hold if still in decent condition, especially the New Model #3. Here's the gun I used for my Kansas CCW qualification shoot:

The New Mod. #3 is my all time favorite shooting handgun. The .44 DA's I find a bit awkward. The 2nd & 3rd Model Russians I find extremely awkward - 99% of shooters can't reach the hammer without repositioning their shooting grip.

Antique S&W gunsmith & author extraordinare, David Chicoine, says that smokeless loads should not be shot in these, and that continued use will likely render any of them unshootable eventually.

Not to miss the opportunity for shameless self-promotion, I always have some .44 Russ. Smiths for sale. Most recent listings are posted here:

http://armchairgunshow.com/otsBA_S_W_Americans.htm

Some of those have sold. If you're interested in any, call Jennifer 913-492-3000 w/ item number so she can check availability.

Best of luck in your quest! - Jim

 

[Win38-55]

David Chicoine is an expert on these old Model 3's. I would be very interested in finding out more about why he thinks smokeless loads will eventually render these old guns unshootable, especially since I use smokeless in mine. I've been measuring the distance between the face of the forcing cone and the face of the rear frame to see if there is any stretch occurring. I started with an initial measurement and then measured every 5 shots, then 10 shots, then 50 and now only every hundred or so. I've put about 350 rounds through my NM#3 over this period and have been able to measure no detectable change (using electronic calipers) in this distance (which is about 1.4925"). My load is 12.5 grains of 5744 under a 256 grain cast bullet, which gives peak pressures less than FFFg for a velocity of about 770 fps.

I know another fellow who has replaced the cylinder in his original NM#3 with a modern cylinder and is shooting loads that are near 44 Mag in strength. The loads broke the original pin on the latch, which he replaced with a modern, stronger one and is continuing to shoot these extreme loads. I'll email him and see if he's been taking measurements. If I recall correctly, he says it still locks up tight as a vault. If any frame is going to stretch, his frame should be already well on its way.

I don't doubt that Dave Chicoine has experience with this, but I wonder if there are certain smokeless loads that do it and others that do not. For example, I never use powder faster than 2400 and I stay in the ballpark of original velocties. A lot of fellows use Unique in their NM#3's which gives a much higher pressure spike than FFFg for the same velocity (although those fellows usually shoot at reduced velocities). Still, even a reduced velocity with Unique may give a pressure spike that exceeds the yield strength of the steel, if only for a micro-second. That will have a cumulative effect.

Is the damage due to frame-stretching or cylinder failure, or is it where the base of the bullet smacks back against the frame?

 

[dinguss]

Well im not shooting it to 44 mag specs but 44 Special its got alot of work done to it

 

[dinguss]

Heres the New latch i made from a chunk of good modern steel.
Now that was alot of work to make!

 

[dinguss]

What i do is by seating the 245 Gr SWC deeper in the case crimped over the shoulder of the bullet it puts the bullet right near the end of the cylinder near the Forceing cone. the results is a Tack Driver of a gun.
the most accurate gun ive shot in my collection.

 

[dinguss]

heres where the project sits now! working 100% but needs the finishing finished!

Id like to point out the Antique Main Frame is unaltered in any way.
And i prefered these wood grips to the Ivory ones.

 

[JimSupica]

Originally posted by Win38-55:
David Chicoine is an expert on these old Model 3's. I would be very interested in finding out more about why he thinks smokeless loads will eventually render these old guns unshootable,

Kirk, it sounds as if you're much more knowledgeable in the mechanics of this than I am, and I'm not gonna dig thru David's books to find the exact quotes, so my ever-unreliable memory may be significantly off on this -- I'd suggest going to his books for the exact nature of the warning.

I'm pretty sure he's put his thoughts on the topic in writing in one of his recent books. Maybe someone else here can quote chapter & verse, and if so, take that over whatever I report below.

THAT SAID, my recollection is that his primary warning was that of stretching (topstrap perhaps, rather than frame, not sure?) As I remember it, it's the difference in the timing of the pressure curve in smokeless vs. black rather than the pressure itself (even in LIGHT smokeless loads) that causes the damage. Again, relying on memory only, I have the impression that his opinion was that shooting even light smokeless loads would eventually render the gun unshootable, and pretty much unrepairable. (Why unrepairable? I dunno... maybe I've misremembered.)

I do shoot light smokeless cowboy loads in my NM#3's, but do so with the knowledge that I'm taking some risk when I do so. I know other folks who do the same.

I have also had vague non-specific off-the-record reassurances from at least one maker on cowboy loads that their loads "shouldn't cause any problem" in antique guns.

You pays yer money & you takes yer chances I guess.

I wish I could shoot smokeless in Model 3's without concern, coz I do hate cleaning guns, and BP loads start binding long before I'm done shooting on the few occassions I do make it to the range.

Now you know everything I know, and then some.

Other thoughts guys? - Jim

 

[dinguss]

OK From Chicoines new book gunsmithing guns of the old west.

section * blackpowder or smokeless*

Note** i have changed a few words and left out stuff i didnt feel like typeing that i thought wasnt important.
Buy his book if ya want his EXACT quates!

I have seen more than a few old revolvers antiques, been ruined while they were being fired by shooters who were useing smokeless.
that caused me to take notes of an alarming set of similarities
AND ALARMING TREND
these Damages might be something as Obvious as a Blowin or Cracked Cylinder although more often the damage is not nearly so obvious.
a common sign that there is a problem related to incorrect ammunition occuring in old revolver is when we see it developing timeing problems along the way.
useally those timeing problems are in turn being caused by excess cylinder end shake and/ or loose barrel to frame connection (in jointed framed revolvers) upon more carefull examination, many of those guns will eventully prove to have badly streched frames as a result of someone fireing the gun with smokeless powder ammo on a regular basis.

BUT Then he says this

it sounds a bit like all thos people were shooting heavy hand loads in those revolvers, and in a very few of the instances that is exactly what they were doing.
however, in a great majority of these ammo damage cases we found that the shooter was useing new, factory assembled smokeless ammo or hand loads at factory specs.

He talks about the steel back then and other stuff but buy his book if you want to know about all that!

Basicly hes against Smokeless loads.
BUT of course heavy smokeless hand loads will wreck a antique gun!
Im experimenting with that Russian model S&W with the ubreti Cylinder and so far all is well.
I will see if it starts to shoot loose.
One thing if ya shoot smokeless with a gun thats NOT tight to begin with each shot will make things worse.
My gun is TIGHT so i will know soon enough if the Frame streches.
I think the Cartridge case and Cylinder take most of the Presure.
But hey im no expert!

 

[Win38-55]

Thanks, Jim and Dingus, for that input. I cannot afford to wreck my two old 44 Russians, so I am proceeding with great caution. Not all smokeless powder loads are equal, even if they have the same bullet, same case and same bullet. Black powder has approximately the same pressure curve as 2400. Smokeless powders slower than 2400 have a lower pressure curve than black powder and powders that burn faster than 2400 have a higher peak pressure than black powder. So a Unique load that sends a 250 grain bullet out the barrel at 770 fps will have a much higher peak pressure than a load of 5744 that has exactly the same velocity.

I know a lot of fellows use Unique but it is very 'peaky', with good pressure spike. Trail Boss is extremely fast (albeit bulky) and extremely peaky. I wouldn't touch those two powders in an antique handgun with a 10-foot pole.

I'll continue to shoot my 5744 loads, but do regular measurements of the top strap. I have no worries about the cylinder with this low pressure load.

Heavy recoil from loads that give higher than original momentum (velocity x mass) could be what stretches frames/top straps. That is something I'd stay away from.

Dingus sounds like he's doing some much more aggressive testing on a NM#3 that appears to have little in the way of any collector's value. His testing could give the rest of us some better idea of what actual limits are for the frame and top strap and, in the long term, may save other antique Model 3's. Keep us posted Dingus.

 

[gunbarrel]

Here is a Russian posing with his Russian

 

[JimSupica]

Originally posted by gunbarrel:
Here is a Russian posing with his Russian

Hey G.B.!

Do you know anything more about that image? I bought a card off ebay a while back w/ that photo in a heart on the front (sort of looks like yours had the same treatment from the point on the bottom of the image).

Do you know anything about the gent pictured, or the cards? I was guessing WWI ish era?

Thx - Jim