The Viking
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Anyone tried an Apex barrel out in 9mm 2.0? Did it make a difference? if so how much?
Apex barrel
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SoCalDep
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Huge difference with the fitted barrel. I have several and have worked with many people who have Apex barrels in their M&Ps. With my old department’s Federal HST 147gr duty ammo the guns will shoot around 1-1.5” groups at 25 yards with 100% reliability.
Semi-fit only need the hood of the chamber fit ( snuggly ) and can make it your m&p a 1.5" or less shooter the Gun smith fit can make it a 1" or less 5 shot pistol . Not hard to do at home ether . You should buy the tool kit for the fitting . Bottom line is the "gun smith fit " barrel in your m&p will impresses even a skilled CMP bullseye shooter .
I added a gunsmith fit barrel to my wifes 11 year old m&p core along with a apex trigger kit . 3lb 4oz trigger and its been a pistols that has surprised a number of real good shooters with far costly handguns .
I will say decide what you need . I don't need a 1" at 25 yard handgun for defensive carry. My CC handguns are a m&p 4.25 40sw thats a 2.5" shooter at best from a rest But I don't shoot from a rest very often so if size will be larger when running different defensive drills fireing at ar500 8" to 9x15 silhouette with 100% reliable hit at 15 and 25 yards . Same goes for my lw commander in 45 both with open sights .
I added a gunsmith fit barrel to my wifes 11 year old m&p core along with a apex trigger kit . 3lb 4oz trigger and its been a pistols that has surprised a number of real good shooters with far costly handguns .
I will say decide what you need . I don't need a 1" at 25 yard handgun for defensive carry. My CC handguns are a m&p 4.25 40sw thats a 2.5" shooter at best from a rest But I don't shoot from a rest very often so if size will be larger when running different defensive drills fireing at ar500 8" to 9x15 silhouette with 100% reliable hit at 15 and 25 yards . Same goes for my lw commander in 45 both with open sights .
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There was an extensive thread on this in the last quarter of 2015 with considerable input from Randy Lee of Apex. There's brief test to see if you might actually benefit from a different barrel.
With an unloaded pistol, remove the recoil spring assembly and take down latch (don't lose the spring). Invert the pistol to install the slide & barrel, put the slide in it's normal position on the frame. Check to make sure the barrel is in it's proper battery position and check for vertical movement at the chamber area. Then do the same for the muzzle. Should be no/minimal vertical movement.
Second step- while carefully watching the chamber area/hood of the barrel for vertical movement, slowly move the slide back like it's recoiling. The slide should move about 5/32-3/16 in before you see vertical movement. If you're seeing fairly noticeable vertical movement in either case, you might benefit from a plus size barrel.
In transition training X00 people to the 1.0 from a TDA pistol, we found trigger manipulation to be the major issue. The 1.0 trigger was designed to be similar to the DA stroke on a revolver. People tend to lose patience and finish up with a hearty yank. Naturally, other issues with fundamentals also exist.
FWIW, I bought a complete slide assembly off GB and had it machined for an RMR. With the dot, I've been able to chase 1 in 25 yard groups from prone with stock barrel. The auld eyes won't let me do anything like that anymore with the original slide assembly.
With an unloaded pistol, remove the recoil spring assembly and take down latch (don't lose the spring). Invert the pistol to install the slide & barrel, put the slide in it's normal position on the frame. Check to make sure the barrel is in it's proper battery position and check for vertical movement at the chamber area. Then do the same for the muzzle. Should be no/minimal vertical movement.
Second step- while carefully watching the chamber area/hood of the barrel for vertical movement, slowly move the slide back like it's recoiling. The slide should move about 5/32-3/16 in before you see vertical movement. If you're seeing fairly noticeable vertical movement in either case, you might benefit from a plus size barrel.
In transition training X00 people to the 1.0 from a TDA pistol, we found trigger manipulation to be the major issue. The 1.0 trigger was designed to be similar to the DA stroke on a revolver. People tend to lose patience and finish up with a hearty yank. Naturally, other issues with fundamentals also exist.
FWIW, I bought a complete slide assembly off GB and had it machined for an RMR. With the dot, I've been able to chase 1 in 25 yard groups from prone with stock barrel. The auld eyes won't let me do anything like that anymore with the original slide assembly.
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OP
The Viking
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Sorry to have to ask but who is GB?
OP
The Viking
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Thanks guys. Information and advice much appreciated.
STORMINORMAN
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GB typically is the abbreviation for GunBroker.com...
Cheers!
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Need to add to above, run the slide assembly forward to the battery position from full recoil before checking for movement. Also note the "might".
As someone noted above, for a defense tool, you don't really want a tightly fitted match gun. If you happen to have one and it's totally reliable under all typical (for you) conditions, fine. But, you don't want the thing to choke on some dust, pollen or whatever when you're betting your butt on it.
As someone noted above, for a defense tool, you don't really want a tightly fitted match gun. If you happen to have one and it's totally reliable under all typical (for you) conditions, fine. But, you don't want the thing to choke on some dust, pollen or whatever when you're betting your butt on it.
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SoCalDep
Member
The M&P is a good gun. The Apex barrel makes it a better gun. Your statements are based on conjecture and assumptions. I know guys that work on rescue helicopters with rotor wash and sand who have run Apex M&Ps with no issues, guys who have put thousands of rounds through M&Ps with Apex barrels without lubrication, and I’ve put a bunch of thousands of rounds through my own Apex fitted M&Ps. I feel they are more reliable than a Glock and with the Apex they truly do reach the “apex” of their ability.
Without the Apex they are good reliable guns that suffer from less than stellar accuracy.
I don’t care what anyone says they can do with “their” M&P… The M&P has lost a lot of Federal contracts and I believe it’s because in sock form it can’t beat Glock accuracy.
Add the Apex and it’s just stupid accurate… and it runs.
Do you need it?
I think that depends on your ability and pocket book more than the attributes of the Apex barrel.
SoCalDep
Member
I’ll add that the most improvement I’ve seen has been in the 4.25” guns. The 4” and 5” guns seem to be pretty consistent with factory barrels. I’ve still seen improvement with the Apex barrels, but out of the box the 4 and 5 inch guns seem pretty nice in my experience. I put an Apex in one of my 5” guns but left the other (tan gun) stock. It shoots really well as is.
I'll have 6000 rds before the summer is over on my apex 4.25" Semi Drop-In 9mm barrel which has had dust/sand/1000 rds before cleaning ect: and it has been 100% reliable.
My 45 and 10mm are a whole different story.
Torn as to whether I'm keeping those two or not.
AlwaysArmed
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Well, there goes another $300. I gotta have one.
AA
AA
Many first-generation M&P's had less than stellar accuracy and triggers that were not so great. Apex and other aftermarket companies make a bunch of money correcting those deficiencies.
S&W recognized the deficiencies in the original M&P line and M2.0 guns are substantially better than their predecessors. Nevertheless, M&Ps are not high-end target pistols. The cost to improve current M&P pistols would probably be hard to justify for the vast majority of shooters.
S&W recognized the deficiencies in the original M&P line and M2.0 guns are substantially better than their predecessors. Nevertheless, M&Ps are not high-end target pistols. The cost to improve current M&P pistols would probably be hard to justify for the vast majority of shooters.
If some feel a little looser fit the the gun smith barrel is wanted do to some false concerns then buy the semi fit barrel . Some minor fitting to the hood of the chamber and it fits . and runs reliably . Even a guy with few skills can watch apex vedio on fitting a barrel and manage to make it fit and function reliably . Our M&P core with a early batch of gun smith fit barrels took less than 20 minutes to fit and has real close to 11,000 rounds fired 100% reliably .
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Good to know. Yes, it was a generalization and I did specify "tightly fitted match guns" and I've seen those choke in far less trying conditions.
Not our experience with X00 MPB prefix series 40s. Or mine with an MPF serial prefix 9. But tolerance stack can raise it's ugly head. Glock wins a lot of contracts on price. The local Sheriffs Dept. went Glock when they went to semis, price and free duty gear. They didn't last long, currently carrying Sigs.
AMEN!
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LVSteve
Member
This makes me wonder if some Federal contracts people are being unnecessarily demanding with their accuracy spec. The phrase "combat accurate" is around for a reason.
May be everyone just needs to do what works for them, and not what everyone on the errornet says they should do.
There are some great threads here, and on other forums also, but what people seem to forget, myself included, is that the OP is asking our opinions and sometimes instead of giving our opinions we are telling them he should do what we do, which may not work for someone else.
In the end, in just about every one of these threads I think we can all come to the conclusion that you have to try things out for yourself, because there is no other way you're going to know if something is going to work for you.
Of course that being said, there's also nothing wrong with trying to get opinions on others experience. This can set the groundwork for what you may want to do in whatever your situation may be.
Sometimes these forums make me feel like I'm walking into a gun shop and asking for a particular item only to have the guy on the other side of the counter tell me no you don't want that, this is what you really want!
There are some great threads here, and on other forums also, but what people seem to forget, myself included, is that the OP is asking our opinions and sometimes instead of giving our opinions we are telling them he should do what we do, which may not work for someone else.
In the end, in just about every one of these threads I think we can all come to the conclusion that you have to try things out for yourself, because there is no other way you're going to know if something is going to work for you.
Of course that being said, there's also nothing wrong with trying to get opinions on others experience. This can set the groundwork for what you may want to do in whatever your situation may be.
Sometimes these forums make me feel like I'm walking into a gun shop and asking for a particular item only to have the guy on the other side of the counter tell me no you don't want that, this is what you really want!
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SoCalDep
Member
I’ve heard the .40’s don’t have the accuracy issues the 9s do… I picked up a .40 CORE a while ago but haven’t shot it yet as other priorities are there and I want to give it some solid attention.
I’ve also heard the 4” and 5” guns tend to shoot very well and accuracy issues are primarily with the 4.25” 9mm guns. I have a tan 5” that is a great shooter at 25yds. It has the factory barrel. I still bet an Apex would improve it some but it’s acceptable and I want it black.
Price is certainly a thing with some contracts but with federal agencies and large local agencies it’s more about what meets the standards set, and as someone mentioned, I think some agencies set accuracy standards to the point that the M&P simply can’t compete in factory configuration. It pains me, because I truly believe… whether shooting them or not (right now I’m shooting 1911s and Staccatos) or whether I was representing a 10,000 armed agency or now that I’m retired and can say what I want… the M&P is a phenomenal pistol design. The execution of that design has been… to be euphemistic… inconsistent.
The good thing is that the “inconsistencies” tend to either be minor and correctable (not as accurate as it could be but not horrible, difficulty or impossibility using the right-side slide release) or very easily identified (trigger tail and extractor issues in earlier M&P9s… and still easily fixed.
S&W also had very real accuracy issues in the earlier model . My wife has an early CORE 4.25 9mm and groups fired from a rest did look more like a load of 12ga 00 buck fired at 15 yards for a cylinder bore shotgun . S&W CS was no help on a trip home . That pistol needed help and at the time the few barrels out there were drop in .
I read an article on the future APEX barrel soon to be released so I placed an ordered a gun smith fit barrel to my wife's core . Now I'm sure I could have fit the barrel a little tighter as I had zero zero issues with it but it is also proven to reliable . My wife used it back then as a match pistol in our local laid back uspsa matches with other ladys . We did not clean the pistol for almost 1000 rounds after the barrel change including a 400 round reproofing at home and accuracy on a good day for me with is still 1.20 average from a rest with a 2moa green dot from this 68 year old man .
Perhaps some concerns about reliability are personal head game's for a couple guys here and unless you find a need so try one for your self .
I will say the M&P 40sw pistols have very good defensive accuracy with loads of 150gr to 180gr and group sizes in the 2" range at least with my 12 year old 4.25 and 2.0 5".
I read an article on the future APEX barrel soon to be released so I placed an ordered a gun smith fit barrel to my wife's core . Now I'm sure I could have fit the barrel a little tighter as I had zero zero issues with it but it is also proven to reliable . My wife used it back then as a match pistol in our local laid back uspsa matches with other ladys . We did not clean the pistol for almost 1000 rounds after the barrel change including a 400 round reproofing at home and accuracy on a good day for me with is still 1.20 average from a rest with a 2moa green dot from this 68 year old man .
Perhaps some concerns about reliability are personal head game's for a couple guys here and unless you find a need so try one for your self .
I will say the M&P 40sw pistols have very good defensive accuracy with loads of 150gr to 180gr and group sizes in the 2" range at least with my 12 year old 4.25 and 2.0 5".
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Rodinal220
Member
What exactly is "combat accurate"??? Please be specific.
Combat Accuracy specifics are some vague and you should know that
as combat accuracy is only what a given person can manage standing and firing a given handgun at a target so pick out a military or LE qualifying course of fire to try using the same spec target and see what you manage to do with in the time allowed like say the FBI qualifier and that one is not hard to manage .
Pass it and your combat accurate for what ever that's worth . May be better than others or worse than others but still CA .
Now what a good handgun and shooter can do in the video below -
OWc5Ghx_1gI
as combat accuracy is only what a given person can manage standing and firing a given handgun at a target so pick out a military or LE qualifying course of fire to try using the same spec target and see what you manage to do with in the time allowed like say the FBI qualifier and that one is not hard to manage .
Pass it and your combat accurate for what ever that's worth . May be better than others or worse than others but still CA .
Now what a good handgun and shooter can do in the video below -
OWc5Ghx_1gI
LVSteve
Member
From what I have read on the Internet, combat accuracy is what can be achieved with a standard issue weapon using mass produced ammo. If you visit places like the Box o' Truth website, you can see tests of AR-15 type rifles with various ammunition where it becomes clear that the ammo is often the limiting factor. Standard issue 62 gr, 5.56 NATO ammo rarely does better than 3"-3.5" groups at 100 yards regardless of the weapon. Yeah, it surprised me, too.
Having read a slew of range reports on American Rifleman and other places, the same group size is often true with mass produced handguns at 25 yards. With bulk ammo, some are showing 4.5" or even larger group at 25 yards. Given that most gun owners (I include myself) cannot shoot a 4.5" group at 25 yards freehand under stress with any pistol/ammo combo, I consider a pistol that can achieve that accuracy from a bench, vise or Ransom rest to be "combat accurate". For any "social work" at any speed, a gun that does 4.5" groups at 25 yards is good enough.
However, that level of accuracy is considered piss poor by those who shoot a lot and/or reload. Such people make up a good proportion of the membership here, but they are often equally vague as to what "accurate" means. Are they expecting 1" groups at 25 yards, 2", 1.75"? Sometimes getting them to state a number is like getting blood from a stone. Apparently the rest of us are supposed to "know" what group size is "accurate". Sorry, but I'm probably more psychotic than psychic, so I need to hear a number up front. I have yet to find it in a definitive document from the National Bureau of Standards, and, oddly, neither do they define "combat accurate".
Well Armed
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It's a waste of money IMHO, but you know what they say about fools and money.
Depending on if your looking to add a semi fit or gunsmith fit barrel Both can be done at home . My m&p 2.0 4" with a stock barrel and recoil spring with a green dot optic for my trifocal vision is good for 2.5 to 3" at 25 yards fired from a bench . You can find shooters than say theu get better accuracy with loads I have not tried and some are worse .
For me 2.5" to 3" 5 shot group is good for a carry handgun for the HP loads my wife likes and some than I have . Now my wife has an early m&p gen 1 4.25 CORE 9mm with a apex gun smith fit barrel I fit to it . It was a real a real **** when new shooting patterns not groups . After the barrel change it could fire several 124gr and 147gr load FN jacketed ammo in several consistent 1.20 to 1.28" for 5 shots and me and a honest 1" for a grandson . Is that needed for carry - Hail No but it sure has surprised other shooters at a forestry range I use to visit when zeroing a new dot optic .
I'm a 40sw guy and 45 and have a old and newer m&ps in 40sw but they always seemed to shoot well .
Having read a slew of range reports on American Rifleman and other places, the same group size is often true with mass produced handguns at 25 yards. With bulk ammo, some are showing 4.5" or even larger group at 25 yards. Given that most gun owners (I include myself) cannot shoot a 4.5" group at 25 yards freehand under stress with any pistol/ammo combo, I consider a pistol that can achieve that accuracy from a bench, vise or Ransom rest to be "combat accurate". For any "social work" at any speed, a gun that does 4.5" groups at 25 yards is good enough.
However, that level of accuracy is considered piss poor by those who shoot a lot and/or reload. Such people make up a good proportion of the membership here, but they are often equally vague as to what "accurate" means. Are they expecting 1" groups at 25 yards, 2", 1.75"? Sometimes getting them to state a number is like getting blood from a stone. Apparently the rest of us are supposed to "know" what group size is "accurate". Sorry, but I'm probably more psychotic than psychic, so I need to hear a number up front. I have yet to find it in a definitive document from the National Bureau of Standards, and, oddly, neither do they define "combat accurate".
There's an issue with thinking that since the average shooter can't shoot groups matching the pistol's mechanical accuracy, it doesn't matter.
The trigger puller's shot dispersion doesn't merely overlap on top of the pistol's mechanical dispersion; they're added to each other. The shooter's wide shots have the mechanical dispersion expanding the group that they're capable of.
Now, of course, everything is a trade-off. Chasing small increases in mechanical accuracy may come at increased parts and/or labor costs, reduced adverse conditions reliability, or reduced durability if you're replacing a CHF barrel with a stainless barrel.
Tom S.
Staff member
I won't disagree with that line of thinking but...
It is a given that many shooters aren't as accurate as the gun(s) they own, but that doesn't mean all shooters are in that group. Give me a gun that is as accurate as it can possibly be and that way I know I am the source of the problem when it won't shoot accurately or group properly. Otherwise I am guessing at two possible sources. We all know some guns are more accurate than others and that is a fact of life. So how does one differentiate which are spot on and which are not? It helps to have at least one extremely accurate firearm with which one can verify their own capabilities. If you can shoot one gun proficiently, chances are great an inaccuracy with another gun is the gun's fault (ruling out ammo issues first). Lacking that, give a gun to one who is know for their shooting abilities and let them determine how good or bad it is.
There is an old saying that a poor workman blames his tools, but that isn't always 100% true.
BEJU My wifes m&p core received an apex FST trigger kit with a curved trigger as soon as they were avalable . I preordered an apex gun smith fit barrel that I fit at home as soon as apex started shipping those out in 2016 I think . It has not been fired as much as a many guys well run thru in a year but it is very close to 14,000 rounds of home rolled missori coated swc 125gr and it has NEVER failed to function .
As bad as many of the early m&p barrels were a better barrel was needed badly . The CHR hammer forged barrel used in the m&p pistols not mean much to me if you own a lossy shooter and many early m&p 9mm were junk .
Oh . stainless steel barrels are hammer forged mostly out of 416-R. Wants to guess what process APEX uses now and at typical handgun velocity's barrel wear is not an issue .
If you lack the basic skills needed to fit a apex G&S barrel thats to be as its not hard to do, if a better barrel is wanted of course . It can be far easier than fitting a new sights !
As bad as many of the early m&p barrels were a better barrel was needed badly . The CHR hammer forged barrel used in the m&p pistols not mean much to me if you own a lossy shooter and many early m&p 9mm were junk .
Oh . stainless steel barrels are hammer forged mostly out of 416-R. Wants to guess what process APEX uses now and at typical handgun velocity's barrel wear is not an issue .
If you lack the basic skills needed to fit a apex G&S barrel thats to be as its not hard to do, if a better barrel is wanted of course . It can be far easier than fitting a new sights !
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I did get to shoot an M&P 1.0 with a fitted barrel (I don't remember if it was an Apex, Bar-Sto, or other) and PC sear, and it was very easy to shoot accurately. You'll get no disagreement from me about early M&Ps; I was not a fan.
Same guy who owned that 1.0 with the fitted barrel also shot out 2.0 5" factory barrel. He's got a training company and got the gun hot enough to melt the front sight's fiber optic a couple of times over the course of tens of thousands of rounds. So, not exactly normal usage.
I'm more skeptical about significant gains in a 2.0 compared to an early 1.0, but every gun is different. If you got a Friday afternoon gun that's on the looser end of specs, then it might be a big improvement.
I might have missed out on a Bar-Sto gun smith fit barrels but know today that they make "semi-fit " barrels .
I only have one 2.0 and its a 4" compact . I don't carry it but may one day ! Accuracy is good enough for carry needs . Now my old m&p 4.24 40 and new 5" ported pc are more than accurate enough for defensive needs .
I Think I could carry my wifes old M&P core with thumb safety added that's fully apexed if I feel the need , maybe ? ha
There is one video of a guy with a 4" compact that has a apex fit gunsmith barrel and it shows him standing and shooting a dueling tree at 50 yards with no misses .
Low point is he had horse in the video that had to run off to escape the muzzle blast . This guy is differently a better class of shooter at least .
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