APEX Gunsmith Fit barrel experience

[Jayhawkhuntclub]

So my barrel arrived Tuesday and it took me 3.5 hours to install. Installation went nearly perfect. Fit is bank vault tight. A little intimidating running a file over at $180 barrel knowing you can't return it at that point. But the job wasn't too bad.

Took it to the range last night with mixed results.
The average for all 14 groups (4 different loads - 5 shot groups at 25 yards, benched) was 2.379" CTC. Best group of the afternoon was 1.47". The best load averaged 1.829 inches CTC. One group had 4 in a clover leaf (0.405") and a flier (naturally) which made it 1.54".

SO, there was improvement over the factory barrel, but not a ton (about 3/8" improvement in best loads). However, this was 4 random loads. I think with a little seasoning and finding the right load, things might be to my liking. At this point, I'm not blown away; but I am hopeful!

 

[Jayhawkhuntclub]

A little eye candy!

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Unless you were shooting from a Ransom Rest, the variances in group sizes could be attributed to minute differences in loads, the fact that first shots are often a bit different than following shots, and the fact that the shooter isn't a machine. And I would argue that flyer's are NOT always a barrel performance issue.

The next time you try this, take six shots, but with first shot aimed OFF the target, so that all subsequent shots will be from a barrel locki up by the cycling of a fired round.

But, as you said, the new barrel did seem to perform better.

 

[Jim Watson]

Unless you were shooting from a Ransom Rest, the variances in group sizes could be attributed to minute differences in loads, the fact that first shots are often a bit different than following shots, and the fact that the shooter isn't a machine. And I would argue that flyer's are NOT always a barrel performance issue.

The next time you try this, take six shots, but with first shot aimed OFF the target, so that all subsequent shots will be from a barrel locki up by the cycling of a fired round.

But, as you said, the new barrel did seem to perform better.

Thing is, NRA, IDPA, USPSA, and gunfights do not allow free sighting shots. The first one counts. too. Sure, throw it away if you are testing ammo, but testing the system as a whole, it should be on record. Minimizing first shot effects are part of a serious accurizing process.

 

[Jayhawkhuntclub]

Unless you were shooting from a Ransom Rest, the variances in group sizes could be attributed to minute differences in loads, the fact that first shots are often a bit different than following shots, and the fact that the shooter isn't a machine. And I would argue that flyer's are NOT always a barrel performance issue.

1) Of course the group sizes could be attributed to the loads. I believe I indicated that.
2) No I am not a machine. However, I do know my personal abilities and limitations in regard to my shooting and group size.
3) No one said that the flyer was a barrel performance issue. It could have been. But my assumption would be it's more likely the shooter. And since the result of the flier was still an 1 1/2" group, I wasn't complaining. Perhaps you misunderstood where I was coming from on that?

 

[Walt Sherrill]

2) No I am not a machine. However, I do know my personal abilities and limitations in regard to my shooting and group size.... I wasn't complaining. Perhaps you misunderstood where I was coming from on that.

I didn't think you were complaining. You've apparently seen an improvement in gun performance, but it seemed to me that you couldn't be sure just how much of the improvement was attributable to the barrel iteself.

That's why I suggested firing the first shot of a mag off target -- as it removes one more possible variation that is controllable. I do that when I try out new ammo. (Could that flyer have been a first shot?) Firing the first shot off target (after a reload) removes one variable that can negatively affect shot placement.

A Ransom Rest test might be the only way to get a satisfactory answer, but a Ransom Rest also isn't always great with polymer-framed guns. (With some of the more-flexible frames you must re-sight the gun with each shot before pressing the lever.)

It may be that the S&W line of polymer frames perform well with the Ransom Rest -- I haven't heard about that characteristic.

Thing is, NRA, IDPA, USPSA, and gunfights do not allow free sighting shots. The first one counts. too. Sure, throw it away if you are testing ammo, but testing the system as a whole, it should be on record. Minimizing first shot effects are part of a serious accurizing process.

He was trying to evaluate barrel accuracy, not practicing presentations and following shots for NRA, IDPA, or USPSA.

What would you recommend to minimize first shot effects?
.

 

[jlcruz2402]

Red dot On your gun

A little eye candy!

You didn't have to get slide cut for installation? How is the red dot working?

 

[M29since14]

Thing is, NRA, IDPA, USPSA, and gunfights do not allow free sighting shots. The first one counts. too. Sure, throw it away if you are testing ammo, but testing the system as a whole, it should be on record. Minimizing first shot effects are part of a serious accurizing process.

The same goes for the last round, where there is no upward pressure against the slide from a round in the magazine, as there is for all the other rounds fired. The gun should work as intended. If it has to be babied to get the results desired, it needs more work.

This remark is not necessarily directed at the OP. I usually try not to contribute to thread drift but this topic is a personal pet peeve. The gun should work as intended - first shot or last - period.

 

[Jim Watson]

He was trying to evaluate barrel accuracy, not practicing presentations and following shots for NRA, IDPA, or USPSA.

What would you recommend to minimize first shot effects?

Beats me, I am not a bullseye gunsmith, I just know the work is done. Maybe Randy Lee would advise on how to improve the PM&P.

 

[Randy Lee]

Hello,

Accuracy testing is part black magic, part science.

First, let's check the mechanical fit of the barrel.
Details
At the bottom of that page is a link to the pdf of our fitting guide.

Of particular interest is to ensure that springing of the barrel is eliminated. This can wreak havoc in accuracy testing. As the slide and barrel heat up (at different rates), the group size can enlarge dramatically.

What ammunition you use obviously makes a difference. It sounds like you are developing loads of your own. What brass, powder and bullets were you using?

As crazy as it sounds, Blazer Aluminum 115 gr ammo shoots really well out of our barrel. I was also told that many of the older Performance Center 952s were tested with this ammo at 25 and 50 yards.

When I test for mechanical accuracy using the Ransom, I always shoot each shot using the sights. My belief is that this is the way the end user is going to shoot the gun, so it's as close to an apples to apples comparison as I can make. Given that there is so much play between slide and frame on the polymer guns, it also makes sense (unlike a custom 1911 that has a fitted slide and frame) to use the sights as an aiming reference when using the Ransom. Polymer frames just tend to shift in the urethane grip adapters when fired.

Be aware that unless the bullet seating depth/powder combination is a compression load, the powder will lay in the case differently for the first shot chambered. You can usually see the difference when you are running a chronograph while you shoot for group. That is why it is often recommended to fire a series of settling rounds before shooting a group.
While this is not measuring "practical accuracy", it is measuring repeatable mechanical accuracy.

Assuming that the barrel is fit optimally and the ammunition is good, I see no reason why the pistol shouldn't shoot 1"- 1.5" off a bench pretty consistently even with a manually chambered first round in the group.

Hope this helps...

-Randy

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Great explanations and summary. Thanks!

I've since seen a repost of another of your technical explanations (posted by CB3) addressing lockup designs.

I see that much of what I assumed (and stated) was arguably correct, but I did not understand the importance of lockup design and how it can affect WHEN the barrel unlocks. I had assumed that S&W's designers/engineers had created a design that would NOT allow premature unlocking in some situations. Your analysis of the the S&W M&P barrel and lockup design and an explanation of what was needed to make it better was a whole new idea, for me.

Thanks.

I have a very accurate M&P Pro (1.0) in 9mm, and the performance work -- which was substantial -- was paid for by the prior owner prior to the trade. The work was done by Speed Shooters Specialties. The owner traded for a slightly upgraded Glock 34, which was also a fine shooting gun; he wanted to get back into Glocks, and while I liked Glocks, saw the trade as an upgrade for me. Both parties to that trade apparently thought the other guy got screwed. I also have a CZ P-07 which is also a stellar performer, even though absolutely stock. I've been thinking about getting a P-09 one of these days, if I can work out a trade. I don't spend a lot of $$ on guns, nowadays.

 

[Randy Lee]

Great explanations and summary. Thanks!

I've since seen a repost of another of your technical explanations (posted by CB3) addressing lockup designs.

I see that much of what I assumed (and stated) was arguably correct, but I did not understand the importance of lockup design and how it can affect WHEN the barrel unlocks. I had assumed that S&W's designers/engineers had created a design that would NOT allow premature unlocking in some situations. Your analysis of the the S&W M&P barrel and lockup design and an explanation of what was needed to make it better was a whole new idea, for me.

Thanks.

I have a very accurate M&P Pro (1.0) in 9mm, and the performance work -- which was substantial -- was paid for by the prior owner prior to the trade. The work was done by Speed Shooters Specialties. The owner traded for a slightly upgraded Glock 34, which was also a fine shooting gun; he wanted to get back into Glocks, and while I liked Glocks, saw the trade as an upgrade for me. Both parties to that trade apparently thought the other guy got screwed. I also have a CZ P-07 which is also a stellar performer, even though absolutely stock. I've been thinking about getting a P-09 one of these days, if I can work out a trade. I don't spend a lot of $$ on guns, nowadays.

Glad I could help!

It took me 4 years of struggling with the issue to finally understand what was happening in the system and more importantly, how we could improve accuracy. Now that we have the recipe for success, I think I will start making barrels for other guns. Accurate guns = fun guns for me.

 

[kthom]

It's my guess? that you will see a bit of difference in your group sizes after you have fired 500 rounds through the gun with your new barrel installed! Probably a positive difference?

 

[CB3]

Randy—your shop worked over my Full Size M&P 9mm when Apex installed my gunsmith fit barrel. I also had one of your trigger kits tuned at the same time.

The gun is tight and accurate. I really enjoy shooting it. I carry it 6/7 days a week. I have put about 2500 rounds through it with no issues. I clean it thoroughly only about every 800-1000 rounds. I keep it lubricated.

Is there any reason to suspect that with the tight barrel I might not have the same reliability in a real dusty/dirty or temperature adverse environment as a more loosely fitted OEM version?

 

[Randy Lee]

Randy—your shop worked over my Full Size M&P 9mm when Apex installed my gunsmith fit barrel. I also had one of your trigger kits tuned at the same time.

The gun is tight and accurate. I really enjoy shooting it. I carry it 6/7 days a week. I have put about 2500 rounds through it with no issues. I clean it thoroughly only about every 800-1000 rounds. I keep it lubricated.

Is there any reason to suspect that with the tight barrel I might not have the same reliability in a real dusty/dirty or temperature adverse environment as a more loosely fitted OEM version?

Hi CB3,

There is always a possibility that a tighter toleranced pistol will be less reliable under dirty/dusty or low temperature environments. A lot of times, the amount and type of lubricant, as well as where it is applied can wreak havoc on function. For instance, I have seen both 1911s and revolvers fail to function properly due to having either a wax based lubricant or grease in low temperatures. I've had it happen to me shooting a match in Utah using a Dan Wesson that shot fine in balmy 70 degree California weather using Lucas Extreme Duty grease. It didn't occur to me at the time that the 40 degree weather might increase the viscosity of the grease and with the tight slide to frame fit might pose problems.

All that being said, the M&P has a good amount of tolerance built into it to ensure reliable functioning in adverse environments. Slide velocity is perhaps the most critical element to proper function- all things being equal. Since the frame to slide fit is only really "tight" while the barrel lug remains in contact with the locking block surface, you shouldn't see any degredation in reliability provided the gun is properly lubricated for the environment/temp range.

It sounds like you maintain your pistol well so I wouldn't expect to see any reliability issues.

 

[Rastoff]

If the gun wasn't shot from a rest, any comparison in group size can't be used to determine if the new barrel is better than the old. There's too much human error.

 

[Jayhawkhuntclub]

You didn't have to get slide cut for installation? How is the red dot working?

No, it is a CORE pistol. So it was done by S&W before I took ownership. The red dot is working okay so far. I wish it were a tad shorter so I could see the iron sights better.

 

[Jayhawkhuntclub]

If the gun wasn't shot from a rest, any comparison in group size can't be used to determine if the new barrel is better than the old. There's too much human error.

The gun WAS shot from a rest. I mention that the groups were shot "benched". By that I meant from a pistol rest.

 

[Jayhawkhuntclub]

I suggested firing the first shot of a mag off target -- as it removes one more possible variation that is controllable. I do that when I try out new ammo. (Could that flyer have been a first shot?) Firing the first shot off target (after a reload) removes one variable that can negatively affect shot placement.

Yes, that is a good point.

 

[hardluk1]

Randy Lee Do the stock barreled 40sw pistol tend to shoot better than the stock barreled 9mm versions .

I upgraded my wifes 4.25 9mm core trigger group 4 years ago and added a gun smith fit barrel a year ago to make it a fin shooter now . But avoided my preferred 40sw m&p do to the known m&p 9mm issues . Last week I traded another brand 9mm I had to one of our daughters for a M&P 4.25 40sw pistol I had upgraded the trigger group in some 4 years ago and only now found it to shoot rather well .

Luck of the draw ? But with no apex 40sw barrels showing ether are they simple better shooters ? Do the 40sw m&ps tend to have managed to get them to function better or is a good shooter 40sw more luck of the draw .

I not as good as accurate behind the trigger as I once was so I enlisted my grandson to try shooting both M&PS from a bench and pistol rest . He managed several 5 shot groups with the 9mm that averaged 1.15 5 shot groups with the fully upgraded 9mm shoot coated 124gr swc practice loads and 2.5" with the 40sw using some old 165gr GA heated heat . So are the 40sw barrels timing better as a whole .