Are the guns weaker on this side of the pond?

[Hoptob]

Okay, guys, late breaking news:

I got some VV 3N37 and tried a few loads in 2" revolvers. To remind you, 2002 Finish edition of VV manual states that 7.4 gr. of 3N37 under 140 gr. JHP is within CIP 38 special +p spec. According to Jelly's 2nd edition of VV printed manuals pressure of this load is 22,500 psi.

Now the numbers:

7.5 gr. 3N37, 140 gr. Rem SJHP, 38spl cases, Rem SP primer. Instrumental velocities at 15':
- 2-1/4" SP101 - AVE 1019 fps; SD 26; ES 56
- 1-7/8" M442 - AVE 984 fps; SD 18; ES 44

7.5 gr. 3N37, 135 gr. Speer GDHP, 38spl cases, Rem SP primer. Instrumental velocities at 15':
- 2-1/4" SP101 - AVE 1011 fps; SD 24; ES 59
- 1-7/8" M442 - AVE 998 fps; SD 6; ES 12

So, with this wonder-powder I can duplicate Speer 135 gr. 357 magnum short barrel load in 38 special cases. And I can do this while staying within modern 38 special +p pressure limit (CIP version). Good enough for me to use this load in M442 without any second thoughts!

This is as high of a velocity as I've ever seen for 38spl +p in short barrel handloads.

Mike

P.S. Here in PNW wonder powder comes at wonder price. Local stores sell it at $33/lb.

 

[Jellybean]

I'm confused Mike, CIP max for the .38spl is 23200psi. I don't see any reference to .38+P or a higher pressure limit for it.

Looking in their .357 magnum Enlish data they list 8.1 grains of 3N37 behind a 140gr Speer JHP at 24900psi, which is only one tenth more than your 8.0 charge. Stuffing this load into a shorter .38 spl case will be just like seating a bullet too deep and drive your pressure up. Are you sure you're in safe CIP limits?

 

[Hoptob]

Jelly,

8.0 gr. charge is clearly above 38 special limit. The whole paragraph about 8.0 gr. load is confusing and I removed it from my post.

My point was (and it still is) that 7.5 gr. charge of 3N37 under 135 gr. Speer GDHP in 38 special cases duplicates velocity of Speer 135 gr. 357 SB factory load. Speer advertizes that this load clocks at 990 fps from 2" revolvers. My 3N37 load clocked same bullet at 998 fps from M442. The 7.5 gr. charge is in fact within CIP 38 special limit according to VV manual which I posted above.

Mike

 

[Jellybean]

Mike, thanks for clearing that up for me. I wasn't sure what the advertised load was for the .357 and that threw me off.

I've never tried any of VVs powder yet. Everytime I plan on a load using it I can't find the powder I want locally. Everything I've read on it so far looks promising though.

 

[Skip Sackett]

OK, Mike, you did it.

You brought this issue back up so, it's all your fault!

Do the conversions. Simple math. Meters to feet. Multiply by 3.28083. Feet to meters. Divide by 3.28083.

That makes the N340 load for the Lasercast 160gr bullet in America @ 1070fps worth 326.14ms at a maximum of 5.6gr of powder.

Take that same bullet and powder across the sea, up the powder to 6.0gr and you get 351ms or 1151.57fps.

Not being real smart, I can read. The reason for the whole thing is the little note under the heading on the American page. "NOTE: The listed maximum loads are SAAMI +P loads!"

It seems to me, again, I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, that the standard is different if our reduced loads are +P and their maximum loads are normal 38spl!

I have some N340 in the basement. Gonna have to make up some boolits!

 

[epj]

Originally posted by Erich:
Tort lawyers are stronger on this side . . .

My thought exactly.

 

[Hoptob]

Hey, look, that old thread is back! Glad you bumped it, Skip, it was a fun one.

Never used N340 but hope you get good results with it... 3N37 works wonders for me -- for change I get to load below published maximum and get respectable performance in 38 spl. Can't ask for much more of a powder, can we?

Mike

 

[rundownfid]

What is Finnish for "The Load"?

 

[Paul5388]

Mike,

I loaded some SR 4756 tonight in RA 67 brass that needs to be retired. The primer pockets are pretty loose on just about the whole box, so I only used 5.2 gr with a 158 gr LSWC.

The same load I shot today in my 1949 M&P shot very good and all of the primers stayed in their pockets!

It's less than 16,000 cup, according to IMR.

 

[Hoptob]

Paul, I am impressed! You're publicly admitting to making SR4756 load within current loading recommendations?! Is everything okay?

Mike

 

[Paul5388]

Well Mike, the primer pockets are loose, so I thought I would throttle back to the current weenie loads.

I had to use a Marks-A-Lot on the nickel front sight on the M&P. The sun was creating quite a glare and I couldn't see the sights too well.

That 4" K frame sure does handle better than my M14-2, which I also shot those loads in.

 

[pinkymingeo]

There was a thread recently in which some guys who seemed to know what they were talking about were discussing metallurgy in S&W revolvers. Apparently there's no difference between the steel used in modern 38spl guns and 357 guns. Only real variation is the length of the chamber. This sounds reasonable enough, and seems to be borne out by experience with THE LOAD. I'm not advocating 35K loads in your Mdl 15, but they're probably safe.

 

[WR Moore]

Originally posted by TiroFijo:
The data given here
were obtained in laboratory conditions following strictly the CIP (Commission International Permanente) June 13, 1990 and November 9, 1993 rules........ Pressure is measured at the case mouth or from inside the case according to the CIP
DO NOT ATTEMPT ANY EXTRAPOLATIONS. PLEASE FOLLOW THE DATA AS WRITTEN."

Where/how you measure the pressures can make big differences. CUP-the original and still standard specs for SAAMI-are not measured in the manner specified.

 

[Paul5388]

Mike,

Here's the latest data I have. You'll notice there isn't any reference to pressure and its max is less than what you loaded.

2006 & 2008 VV data
9,1 140 HP Speer 36,5 1,437
N320 0,30 4,6 268 878 0,35 5,3 320 1051
N340 0,36 5,6 275 902 0,41 6,2 329 1079
3N37 0,41 6,2 282 925 0,46 7,1 341 1117
N350 0,40 6,2 282 925 0,45 6,9 336 1102

 

[Duke426]

Welcome to the United States - epicenter of stupidity and litigation.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Originally posted by Duke426:
Welcome to the United States - epicenter of stupidity and litigation.

While that is partially true, at least for the time being we CAN own firearms and USE them in self defense.

That all may change in the near future BUT this is still the greatest country on the face of the earth.

 

[Hoptob]

Paul,

The data you posted is probably coming from "International" (i.e. English) version of VV manual. I am using Finnish version which has slightly higher loads -- it's posted on page 1 of this thread.

Interestingly, the only difference between English and Finnish versions is in 38 special; all other pistol calibers have same loads. I have full pdf of 2002 Finnish version; drop me an email if you want it.

Mike

 

[Paul5388]

Mike,

Those were the only two I've found for downloading. I'll see if I can find one in German, or some other language I'm fluent in.

The latest available for download, even when I select Deutch, is the 2009 version 7. It contains the same statement someone else posted.

All of this reloading information has been provided by Nammo Lapua Oy. The data given here were obtained in laboratory conditions following strictly the CIP (Commission International Permanente) June 13, 1990 and November 9, 1993 rules. The listed maximum loads have been determined according to the respective CIP/SAAMI maximum pressure specification, whichever is lower.

These test methods have been deemed to be safe throughout the world. Pressure is measured at the case mouth or from inside the case according to the CIP.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Mike,
Do you have a .pdf of the Finnish version?

If so, please email me or make it available at one of the web "hardrive" spots.

Thanks!

 

[Paul5388]

Even when I select Suomi, I still get the same English loading data.