Arkansas Shootout

[WardenRoss]

Dashcam video from Sunday. It reminds me of one of our simulator videos, but this is real.

I don't usually post this kind of stuff, but take it for what it is.....

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mEuHrm-GXU[/ame]

 

[Rustyt1953]

Either they were both horrid shots or both cars had their deflector shields up.

Not a single shard of glass.

 

[Absalom]

Just another example how full of hooey Jeff Cooper was with his silly pronouncement that high-capacity pistols are for people who plan to miss a lot.

In a real gunfight you WILL miss a lot, in fact most of the time, no matter how well trained.

And even if you don’t, it may not do you that much immediate good.

Some of you may be familiar with this video from Oregon. The perp was actually killed with one of the first shots the officer fired, but didn’t realize it until he’d driven off. They found him dead in the car a few miles down the road.

[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BUkMoNiCOQs[/ame]

 

[WardenRoss]

...Not a single shard of glass.

It's raining glass starting at 1:13. Look again.

 

[6518John]

Here is the whole story. WardenRoss—thanks for posting. I had not heard about this.

Dashcam video captures shocking shootout with police in Arkansas | thv11.com

 

[bigwheelzip]

Either they were both horrid shots or both cars had their deflector shields up.

Not a single shard of glass.

On my laptop I see the patrol car glass is flying all over the place at 1:14 to 1:26.

 

[Rustyt1953]

It's raining glass starting at 1:13. Look again.

I see it now.

 

[REM 3200]

On our TV News it showed the windshield on the patrol car.
It had 9 to 10 holes in it.

 

[WardenRoss]

Let’s see here..

Pure speculation...

Perpetrator gets the jump on the Officer and is perficent with a high capacity auto loader.

Officer has to duck the rounds coming at his head through the windshield, release his lap belt, retrieve his restrained pistol and decide from what position he will respond.
EDIT: TV report says Officer was exiting his vehicle when the perp first fired at him.


The Officer has a residence on his immediate right. He has a passenger in the perp’s vehicle. Is this an innocent child?

He also has oncoming traffic.

A lot to think about.

The biggest factor was the determination of the perp. He knew what he was doing.

Thank God The Officer survives.



Pecked out on my iPhone.

 

[6518John]

Law enforcement has to be one of the most difficult and dangerous jobs in the world. A simple traffic stop and $75 ticket turns into attempted capital murder.

 

[Sevens]

Armchair quarterback attempt... just for discussion.

Let's say you are the driver of the first oncoming white SUV as shown in the video. When you roll up on the scene, you see clearly that some guy is actively sending shots directly at a police car at short range. The shooter at NO POINT ever turns around. There was (seemingly) many, many seconds of opportunity to ram his open driver's side door and crush him in the process. Doing so puts you likely or possibly in the path of police fire. It also makes you an immediate target of a man with a gun at close range.

I'm certain that LE, given the question, would instruct you NOT to do this. But maybe it's a an option?

Probably not going to happen, especially if you absolutely don't have a full handle on what is happening. But as I watch the video, man it sure seems like a good move.

 

[hoc9sw]

Armchair quarterback attempt... just for discussion.

Let's say you are the driver of the first oncoming white SUV as shown in the video. When you roll up on the scene, you see clearly that some guy is actively sending shots directly at a police car at short range. The shooter at NO POINT ever turns around. There was (seemingly) many, many seconds of opportunity to ram his open driver's side door and crush him in the process. Doing so puts you likely or possibly in the path of police fire. It also makes you an immediate target of a man with a gun at close range.

I'm certain that LE, given the question, would instruct you NOT to do this. But maybe it's a an option?

Probably not going to happen, especially if you absolutely don't have a full handle on what is happening. But as I watch the video, man it sure seems like a good move.

I hope you already know the answer. It would be very foolish UNLESS the officer was down.

 

[Old cop]

I’ve been in a gunfight but it was 1974 and I was carrying my issued Colt Detective Spl. Twelve shots were fired at the suspect and I hit him four times, for a hit rate of 33% (my qualification scores were consistently 98%). The suspect was moving, hiding behind things and shooting at me but I did hit everything he was hiding behind. This is not a Hollywood production w/a scripted outcome. Police gunfights happen usually w/o warning, and are very sudden. Too many, who have never been there, are critical of hit ratios for cops. Let them walk a mile in my shoes.

 

[M29since14]

He lived to go home, the bad guy got rounded up, and no one that didn’t need to get hurt got hurt. I’d say he did just fine - and he was very lucky.

 

[HOUSTON RICK]

If I am ever in a gunfight, I hope to be as lucky as that patrolman. I hope that the officer had his gun drawn as soon as the driver failed to comply.

 

[TomkinsSP]

Just another example how full of hooey Jeff Cooper was with his silly pronouncement that high-capacity pistols are for people who plan to miss a lot.

In a real gunfight you WILL miss a lot, in fact most of the time, no matter how well trained.

In the days of the Teddysaurus, NYPD carried .32 Police, then .38 Specials, 5 and 6 shot revolvers. They sufficed because officers were trained in the use of deliberate aimed fire. Every shot on the street wasn't a hit, but most were, and civilians were not constantly being hit by stray rounds.

JMO, but with the advent of military style training, and military style hi-capacity semi automatics, the change to point firing and shooting lots of rounds until the threat is neutralized; we have a situation in which we have more misses than hits, more peripheral hits than quality hits, more stray rounds, more civilians being injured.

Pistol caliber bullets do not incapacitate unless placed in a part of Mr. Badguy that he needs to function. That's why one .32 (or .22) to the CNS works while multiple nines to extremities does not.

It's sorta counter-intuitive but football helmets increase head injuries and high capacity weapons and magazines cause more misses.

 

[kimporter]

Is it just me ,this guy seems awfully proficient at what he’s doing,almost like he’s done it before

 

[Inusuit]

In the days of the Teddysaurus, NYPD carried .32 Police, then .38 Specials, 5 and 6 shot revolvers. They sufficed because officers were trained in the use of deliberate aimed fire. Every shot on the street wasn't a hit, but most were, and civilians were not constantly being hit by stray rounds.

JMO, but with the advent of military style training, and military style hi-capacity semi automatics, the change to point firing and shooting lots of rounds until the threat is neutralized; we have a situation in which we have more misses than hits, more peripheral hits than quality hits, more stray rounds, more civilians being injured.

Pistol caliber bullets do not incapacitate unless placed in a part of Mr. Badguy that he needs to function. That's why one .32 (or .22) to the CNS works while multiple nines to extremities does not.

It's sorta counter-intuitive but football helmets increase head injuries and high capacity weapons and magazines cause more misses.

Do you have data to support any of your opinions?

High capacity weapons and magazines cause more misses?

In this reasoning, the best weapon for law enforcement would be a single shot.

In one of Elmer Keith's books, he recounts an incident he observed on a city street. A policeman emptied his revolver at a fleeing vehicle. Keith saw no bullets strike the car. Only anecdotal, but in that single example, the officer "trained in the use of deliberate aimed fire" missed an automobile six times.

I suspect at the turn of the century, there were police who were not proficient with their firearms, and I suspect that's true today.

 

[TomkinsSP]

High capacity weapons and magazines cause more misses?

In this reasoning, the best weapon for law enforcement would be a single shot.

It would be IF efficiency were most important. But as axiomic as it sounds, enforcing the law is the most important aspect of law enforcement.

Just as having $108 in your wallet allows you more options to spend than having $21, having that Glock 19 with three magazines and a 27 as backup permits many more options that we had with 23 rounds (64 and a 40 and two reloads) total. We HAD to make each round count. We could not walk fire into a target or point fire.

I once deliberately shot a dumpster 11 times. The Schell behind it was shooting at us, and I was instructed to pin him down while others maneuvered behind him. I had to time it out, every time a body part moved from cover, one round into the dumpster. How many rounds would be fired today by an officer with 59 rounds or so...

In one of Elmer Keith's books, he recounts an incident he observed on a city street. A policeman emptied his revolver at a fleeing vehicle. Keith saw no bullets strike the car. Only anecdotal, but in that single example, the officer "trained in the use of deliberate aimed fire" missed an automobile six times.

I suspect at the turn of the century, there were police who were not proficient with their firearms, and I suspect that's true today.

True enough, aiming and trying to hit your target is like preparing for a test. It does not guarantee success. But I'd bet those who prepare do better than those who do not.

NYPD internal reviews show more misses with nines than with .38 Special. JMO I think the higher capacity begot a different training regimen which allows for more unarmed and poorly aimed shots.

In thier concussion lawsuit the NFLPA quoted studies showing an increase in head injuries concurrent with increasingly effective helmets. Again, JMO when I played football in high school you would not use your head as a weapon as you were likely to be injured. Better helmets allow more options, including using your head as a spear.

 

[jtcarm]

Unless the officer ran off and left a partner or innocents in harms way, I wouldn’t dream of criticizing his performance under that kind of fire.

I don’t think any amount of training could prepare someone for that.