[sarcasm on] I now feel completely undergunned and generally inferior in every way with my S&W Model 6946. I cannot even look in the general vicinity of a totally worthless, not even good as a paperweight or doorstop, M1911. The world of handguns is now at it's end, the only one that should be owned is an M17. Why, it's so good that I think it could even replace the army's fleet of tanks and attack helicopters. [sarcasm off]
Army's Take on its new M17 Pistol
- Thread starter Wyo
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LOL...... you don't really have to do anything to get the Beretta I described..it's commercially available. The Beretta 92 has evolved over the years.... but the Military specs for any "new" Beretta's ordered remain the same as they were in 1984/85... with the sole exception of the guns now being FS vs. F's. While some units still issue the 1911; the guns fielded today aren't the same as spec'ed in 1911 or fielded in WWI or WWII. So why didn't the Military upgrade the M-9?????
I've had a 92 Compact since 1988...... short slide and butt (13+1). I often carry it concealed in an IWB Summer Special holster. When the Centurion was introduced it melded the Compacts shorter barrel/slide (4.2") with the full size frame....... in my opinion there never was a good reason to have a 5" barrel on the M-9. The Centurion upgrade to today's specs are great guns. Just ask Bill Wilson, Ken Hackathorn or Earnest Langdon.............. u-tube videos available at Wilson Combat.
One thing I don't think I mentioned in my original post is the Beretta now has a de-cocker only version the G model. Originally made for the French contract in the 90s . Later spect'ed on many US police contracts and a standard feature on commercial EliteII models. There's even a kit to retrofit older guns with a G conversion...... MSRP on the commercial kit is $50. Gov't cost would likely be in the $25 to $30 range.
I'll withhold judgement on the M-17. But I do question how much regular units will customize individual guns for the individuals they are issued to. Guns are not "personal" to troops (unless you're wearing stars) they are kept in an armory and issued as needed.........I don't think units will let troopers order up a personalized M-17 like a Starbucks coffee!!!!
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While attending a training class at Gunsite, a Marine Gunny in my class had his issued M9 fail so many times, the school finally just lent him a gun. I want our troops to have something that goes bang so whether it's a Beretta, Glock, or M&P, just make it work. The sum of parts of the M17 that made it attractive are the interchangeable grip modules so they can be changed to fit hand size. The other is an ambidextrous thumb safety that is helpful for left handed shooters. It's also a fairly lightweight gun for carry purposes and has a 21 round magazine. Fitted with either a Deltapoint red dot or standard night sight, it's pretty easy to shoot. Now, I hope it holds up to military use and abuse.
LoboGunLeather
US Veteran
I would run out to buy one but then the Mk-II and/or Mod-3 would come along and I'd be holding second-hand junk again.
As I noted above there have been many reports that some/many/most of the M-9 are worn out..... then there was the issues traced to the Checkmate magazines (low bidder). Why I only use factory or Mec-gar magazines.
Interesting that the Gunny could take an issue weapon on a field trip in the US?????????????? Listening to Ken Hackathorn I was under the impression that the trainers came to the unit or Dept. to train units not individuals.
The M 17 is more of a system than the previous service pistols. Looks like the ability to mount an optic, light and suppressor is now an option, as well as, changing grip sizes. The article also pointed out that during training by the "Screaming Eagles" (a plug for my old unit), the solders were getting good "dispersion" (groups). The type of close quarters combat that these soldiers are now often involved in, does seem to increase the validity of issuing more handguns. A buddy of mine (RIP) was an infantry platoon leader in RVN. He had just cleared a tunnel complex with only a flashlight and 1911. He was taking a break, sitting by a large tree. He heard someone approaching from his rear. He stood and looked around the tree. There stood an NVA soldier with an AK-47 at port arms. They surprised one another. My buddy reacted first and fired on shot and took out the enemy soldier by a head shot. My buddy would argue the importance of a service pistol and was a 1911 advocate, even after retirement.
Bam-The MP5 is a fun old school tool. But the MP7 is an absolute blast to shoot. The attached is 15 yards. Honestly I couldn't see the results so I wasn't sure where the rounds were hitting, but I was pleased with my first attempt.
Attachments
9mm
An under powered small nuclear device. Your asking the 9mm to do too much. Multiple layers of clothing and at a minimum a flak jacket or soft body armor. There are no hollow points on the battlefield. And if there were, you're still asking too much of the 9mm. Penetration is your friend.
If it's full metal jacket it needs to be 45 acp.
An under powered small nuclear device. Your asking the 9mm to do too much. Multiple layers of clothing and at a minimum a flak jacket or soft body armor. There are no hollow points on the battlefield. And if there were, you're still asking too much of the 9mm. Penetration is your friend.
If it's full metal jacket it needs to be 45 acp.
Bam-The gunny was at Gunsite on official Marine business. So he had an issued gun. I think the first fail was a trigger spring. After that I believe the gun needed a recoil spring and the Gunsite guys basically just rebuilt it for him. He thought he had brought a good one but was embarrassed. I think he went back to 29 Palms with a very functional weapon. Great kid. He meticulously policed up all his brass and was squared away. And he got some great training to share with the riflemen....
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The article obviously chose happy (and selected) end-users to discuss the M17.
I have a 92FS and shoot it fine (with small-medium hands) but in an ideal world the M17 will fit more users better. Those in the military who are not "gun people" will struggle with either
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I suspect the interchangeability of parts is fine in practice, but won't happen that often out in the field - the armorers may tweak the backstraps, etc. for training and qualification but in real life it will be "run with what you brung".
LPD, if a Marine MGySgt looks like a "kid" to you, you are showing your age
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I have a 92FS and shoot it fine (with small-medium hands) but in an ideal world the M17 will fit more users better. Those in the military who are not "gun people" will struggle with either
.I suspect the interchangeability of parts is fine in practice, but won't happen that often out in the field - the armorers may tweak the backstraps, etc. for training and qualification but in real life it will be "run with what you brung".
LPD, if a Marine MGySgt looks like a "kid" to you, you are showing your age
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Murphydog-I was at Gunsite with my son who is 40. Yes, I am a geezer......
Actually the M17 doesn't have interchangeable back straps. The entire grip module can be changed to the desired size. I don't know how the supply system is today, but in my experience, individual soldiers usually find a way to get what they need and then some. My impression (I certainly may be wrong) is that today's soldiers get much more handgun and firearms training, in general, than back in the old days. If the training is of a high quality, even soldiers that aren't gun people can get relatively proficient.The article obviously chose happy (and selected) end-users to discuss the M17.
I have a 92FS and shoot it fine (with small-medium hands) but in an ideal world the M17 will fit more users better. Those in the military who are not "gun people" will struggle with either
I suspect the interchangeability of parts is fine in practice, but won't happen that often out in the field - the armorers may tweak the backstraps, etc. for training and qualification but in real life it will be "run with what you brung".
LPD, if a Marine MGySgt looks like a "kid" to you, you are showing your age
Grayfox
US Veteran
When my younger son was in Iraq 2009-10, his primary weapon was a M240B mounted on a MRAP. He had a M4 as a carry weapon. At one point they issued him a M9. After a couple of weeks he turned it back in. Said it was useless extra weight. He'd rather carry extra rifle ammo.
Hey it takes a lot of hype to justify $580 mil.
Absalom
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
Well, factoring in all costs including maintenance, pilot training and such over the expected lifespan of the fleet, the cost to the Air Force per F-35 has been calculated at $670 mil. That's one airplane. You can likely slip the cost for the entire pistol procurement into one of the many cost overruns, and nobody would notice.
This is chickenfeed. I doubt anyone is losing much sleep over justifying it.
And the Berettas?
Sorry for a bit of thread drift. Just wondering if the existing Berettas might become available through the DCM? This could happen as the current administration is pro-2nd Amendment.
Sorry for a bit of thread drift. Just wondering if the existing Berettas might become available through the DCM? This could happen as the current administration is pro-2nd Amendment.
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Thanks for the information, but to me that may not be a positive - can't imagine the armorers taking grip modules out in the field to swap them around. Am guessing they will set all of them up to "full size" (except for those can carry a "compact" for duty) and call it good...
"Bam-The gunny was at Gunsite on official Marine business." "Great kid."
"... if a Marine MGySgt looks like a "kid" to you, you are showing your age ."
I read that and thought the same thing. Then I realized that an NCO with 30 years of service would still be over 15 years younger than me!!!!
"... if a Marine MGySgt looks like a "kid" to you, you are showing your age ."
I read that and thought the same thing. Then I realized that an NCO with 30 years of service would still be over 15 years younger than me!!!!
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MOONDAWG
US Veteran
Having put close to 500 rounds through an M-17, my personal option is that it is no better or worse than a dozen or more striker fired polymer framed pistols on the current market.
The quick change modular frame format is the only "novel" change I experienced.
The quick change modular frame format is the only "novel" change I experienced.
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