Assessing defensive handgun reliability

[WR Moore]

Back when I was issued a revolver and our instructors were all S&W Academy certified LEIs, we shot our guns a lot. And, we experienced malfunctions. Son of a gun, our esteemed instructors never taught us Immediate Action Drills for the revolver, we had to develop them ourselves. Not real sure who's failure the lack of IADs was.

I've covered this before but: trigger won't move/cylinder won't rotate can be caused by a bunch of things. IAD: grab the hammer spur and YANK! If that fails, go to Plan B, whatever that may be for you.

Empties won't extract- slap the ejector/extractor rod or whack it against something solid. If that doesn't clear the empties, go to Plan B.

Plan B, followed by Plan C........ya gotta remember that, unlikely though the scenario may be in the first place, there are no time outs, mulligans or do overs in a gun fight. Unless, both sides run out of ammo. Then it might stoop to hand to hand.

 

[fredj338]

Some agreement, some disagreement.

There are a few auto pistols, the Kahr in particular, that actually specify break-in periods. I believe their number is 200 rounds. That is a minor detail and consistent with gaining confidence in most machines.

As for 300 rounds and the recommended procedure above, that seems pretty solid to me.

I did say most. I would want 500rds thru a new 1911, especially if it is a match grade/tight weapon.

 

[fredj338]

Back when I was issued a revolver and our instructors were all S&W Academy certified LEIs, we shot our guns a lot. And, we experienced malfunctions. Son of a gun, our esteemed instructors never taught us Immediate Action Drills for the revolver, we had to develop them ourselves. Not real sure who's failure the lack of IADs was.

I've covered this before but: trigger won't move/cylinder won't rotate can be caused by a bunch of things. IAD: grab the hammer spur and YANK! If that fails, go to Plan B, whatever that may be for you.

Empties won't extract- slap the ejector/extractor rod or whack it against something solid. If that doesn't clear the empties, go to Plan B.

Plan B, followed by Plan C........ya gotta remember that, unlikely though the scenario may be in the first place, there are no time outs, mulligans or do overs in a gun fight. Unless, both sides run out of ammo. Then it might stoop to hand to hand.

Why there are no iad for a revo. Generally when they fail, its a club or go to your bug.

 

[Abflyboy]

The only guns that I have had BREAK while shooting were revolvers.

The only guns that I have had suffer a malfunction that required gunsmith remedial action were revolvers.

Lots of tiny, highly stressed parts in revolvers.

FTF, FTE, stovepipe, light strike in a semi auto? IAD has gun back shooting in less than 2 seconds.

 

[SixGunSancho]

Most modern pistols don't need a break in period.

^^^He knows of what he posts^^^

A good quality gun will be 100% (as close to 1 as any mechanical device can get) reliable before it fires its first round.

 

[Kanewpadle]

^^^He knows of what he posts^^^

A good quality gun will be 100% (as close to 1 as any mechanical device can get) reliable before it fires its first round.

I doubt that seriously. I've seen new guns out of the box that broke. Ever hear of a "lemon".

 

[Chino74]

Semiautos when they malfunction can usually be corrected on the spot if one knows how to clear the weapon & get back in business, when revolvers malfunction it's usually a trip to the gunsmith.

 

[film495]

the only actual failure I've seen was a popped spring. they all have springs that can just let go.

 

[rock n roll kid]

reliability is essential .....

in a defensive /or carry gun , no one arguing that. carried a 38 s&w snub for years . never really had great marksmanship with that snub & times have changed dramatically .
got me a sig p365 & would not go back to the revolver for my own reasons ...... being more fire power & a gun that is a good bit easier to shoot for myself. this will very with people , no doubt. got the sig a few months after they fixed a couple of problems they had with the gun and i will go in to details as most of u know what i speak of . started putting rounds thru the sig not long after i got it home . ran about 14-15 mags full , with the standard mag & the higher capacity one ( 10 + 1 & 12 + 1 ) mixed the ammo up with 115 gr jhp 's , 124 gr. fmc , + p + rounds & different makes of ammo . no problems at all . even had my lady shoot it , if limp wristing or improper hold should show up , it might be more of a chance with a female shooter .
not the worlds most stringent test , but a really good chance any problems would have showed up with that much different ammo , AND two different people shooting the gun .
hope this helps .
have a fondness for certain revolvers i own , but in this day & age for me the semi auto hi cap makes much more sence . and yes , i have seen a revolver fail..... my own a few years back . light primer strikes at least 50 % of the time . would ruin your day for sure in a defense situation !

 

[lrrifleman]

I have had a failure with my first 1911 (Triple K magazine floorplate let go), my 439 (magazine release came apart), and my old Model 27 (extractor star separated from the extractor rod). The 1911 failure that I exerienced, I have come to anticipate, so I always carry a few extra magazines and I refuse to purchase anything Triple K.

On the 439, a previous owner had taken apart the magazine release and cross threaded the button on reassembly. It required parts replacement. The Model 27 failure was different and put the revolver out of play. S&W claimed they would have to replace the cylinder, extractor, extractor rod, and crane for about $400 (in the mid to late '90s), since they no longer had the parts on hand for my dash number. My 'smith diagnosed the problem as a press fit that failed, and repaired it (weld, fit, reblue) for $25.

Some problems may be apparent on the first range trip, some surface over time. Some can be overcome immediately, some can't. One would think that reliable function would focus on reliable feeding, extraction, and firing when the trigger is pulled. One shouldn't have to torture test a new handgun before trusting their life on it. Some failures will appear only over time and (hard) use.

Out of curiosity, back when LE carried revolvers, how many rounds were put through them before they were issued to officers for street duty?

 

[SixGunSancho]

I doubt that seriously. I've seen new guns out of the box that broke. Ever hear of a "lemon".

Do you think a "break in" period will turn a lemon in to honey?

A lemon is a lemon. Either make lemonade or part company with lemons.

A good quality gun will function flawlessly at its first round.

BTW, I've never, ever had to "break in" a Sig or Springfield Armory handgun. I experienced difficulty opening the cylinder of my new Model 66-8 2.75". Wilson's gun grease and a lot of articulation of the cylinder mechanism broke her in. It's still a little stiff, but nowhere as what she was.

 

[Kanewpadle]

Do you think a "break in" period will turn a lemon in to honey?

A lemon is a lemon. Either make lemonade or part company with lemons.

A good quality gun will function flawlessly at its first round.

BTW, I've never, ever had to "break in" a Sig or Springfield Armory handgun. I experienced difficulty opening the cylinder of my new Model 66-8 2.75". Wilson's gun grease and a lot of articulation of the cylinder mechanism broke her in. It's still a little stiff, but nowhere as what she was.

In my experience, not true. A lemon can manifest itself immediately or after break in.

 

[dr. mordo]

I doubt that seriously. I've seen new guns out of the box that broke. Ever hear of a "lemon".

Fred also then states that he breaks in all his pistols.

I think we are running into semantics - call it a "break-in" or an "ops check", either way the idea is you fire a bunch of rounds to make sure the gun works. The way I look at a break-in period is not just to prove that a gun is reliable with a given ammo, but also to improve a functional gun by smoothing internal surfaces.

I agree with some of y'all that problems with a semi tend to show up early rather than later, but I find that problems in the first 100 rounds often clear up during the next 100 rounds.

As far as the idea that modern guns never require a break-in, some manufacturers such as Kahr and Kimber specify a break-in requirement. Others do not, but that doesn't mean their guns won't benefit from it. One example that springs to mind is modern revolvers certainly benefit from a break-in of at least several hundred dry fires; in fact, Jerry Miculek says 3000 dry fires on a revolver is the same as a custom trigger job.

So Miculek's break-in regimen is pretty robust, but what does he know...

 

[dr. mordo]

A good quality gun will function flawlessly at its first round.

I'm not sure if you are saying lemons happen even to top tier gun makers or if you truly mean "a good quality gun will function flawlessly at its first round", but I have had $800+ lemons and I have had $150 guns that ran like clockwork after a break-in. I have had examples of "perfection" that were utterly unreliable. I've had over-engineered and highly regarded guns that ran perfectly with practice ammo but blew the mag out of the gun with hot carry ammo.

If you want to trust your life to an untested weapon, feel free.

I will not.

 

[Ziggy2525]

The failure rate for pretty much most mechanical things follow a bathtub curve.

You shoot some number of rounds through a new pistol to get it past the infant mortality failure stage. Doesn't mean won't fail after that, but the probability of a failure stays low(er) until it reaches it's end of useful life.

(image from here... Bathtub Curve)

 

[Execpro]

A lot of great post! What a lot of folks call break in I call checking out a new gun. Doesn't matter if it's a revolver or semi-auto. JMO all new revolvers benefit from shooting 10 to 15 cylinders of defense ammo or plinking ammo under different conditions for reasons mentioned above as well as seeing if there is a manufacturing defect.

EXAMPLES: 1-New S&W 686 had an extra trigger spring in the works. It took about 6 cylinders for the spring to fall into a position that locked up the gun. 2- I aways check a gun under stressful conditions (rapid fire for pistol - 2 or 3 mags) or shooting 50 rounds in under 30 minutes with a new defense revolver. Had a revolver lock up after 40 rounds (the distance between the forcing cone and cylinder was within factory specs when cold but the heat from rapid fire caused the metal to expand and it bound up the cylinder (Not stainless steel). Gun functioned properly when it cooled down and under normal shooting the issue would never occur.

To answer your question YES. If there is good quality control at the factory I believe most revolvers would have few if any issues new and most people don't shoot enough under extreme conditions for a issue to surface.

Be SAFE and Shoot often!