SW_shooter
Member
Wow! 2-300 a year. I feel like Rockafeller when I buy 2 in a month.
ATF visited me,Has this happened to you ?Happy Ending!!
- Thread starter haris1
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S&WIowegan
US Veteran
I've had three visits from BATFE over the years. The first was from a female agent checking me out when I applied for an FFL. She wanted to see my gun safe and spent time explaining the books and forms. I got the FFL but let it lapse when the Clintons made a big push to eliminate hobby FFLs.
More recently, an agent and a local LEO came to my door. My lawyer daughter answered and said she'd ask me to call the agent. Note did NOT let them in house! I called the agent and he was responding to a multiple purchase report they had on me(I buy from auction houses and they ship to local FFL). I told the agent I would have my lawyer call him. The lawyer and I agreed to offer the agent a meeting at the law firm where I would produce any specific guns he wanted. After a cordial chat, the agent decided not to go any further.
Last year, an agent and local LEO came to my door and I answered. I allowed them into my kitchen and the agent said a serial number of a gun I had bought turned up in a felony. He gave me the serial number. I didn't have time to root in my safes for it then. I offered to find the gun(or not) and call him back to arrange a meeting. The agent was very aggressive and accusatory but agreed to my suggestion.
I knew something was wrong because I don't sell guns, just accumulate. I found the gun, an ancient hand ejector pre WW II. Then called my lawyer. We agreed to offer him a meeting at the law office where I would produce the gun. I called him and explained I still had the gun, it was an old revolver and would produce it at a meeting. He backed away and I never heard any more.
I think several things are important to do;
1. be civil and cordial...costs you nothing and you're a fool not to play it that way.
2. do not ever cordially give them access to your safe and guns.
3. if ATF really wants to see a gun(s), have them list what they're looking for.
4. if it goes this far, lawyer up! You're a fool if you don't.
Both the agents who came to my door unexpected were guys who had transferred here from large cities. They both seemed a bit hyper and aggressive. They also calmed down when we talked everything through.
More recently, an agent and a local LEO came to my door. My lawyer daughter answered and said she'd ask me to call the agent. Note did NOT let them in house! I called the agent and he was responding to a multiple purchase report they had on me(I buy from auction houses and they ship to local FFL). I told the agent I would have my lawyer call him. The lawyer and I agreed to offer the agent a meeting at the law firm where I would produce any specific guns he wanted. After a cordial chat, the agent decided not to go any further.
Last year, an agent and local LEO came to my door and I answered. I allowed them into my kitchen and the agent said a serial number of a gun I had bought turned up in a felony. He gave me the serial number. I didn't have time to root in my safes for it then. I offered to find the gun(or not) and call him back to arrange a meeting. The agent was very aggressive and accusatory but agreed to my suggestion.
I knew something was wrong because I don't sell guns, just accumulate. I found the gun, an ancient hand ejector pre WW II. Then called my lawyer. We agreed to offer him a meeting at the law office where I would produce the gun. I called him and explained I still had the gun, it was an old revolver and would produce it at a meeting. He backed away and I never heard any more.
I think several things are important to do;
1. be civil and cordial...costs you nothing and you're a fool not to play it that way.
2. do not ever cordially give them access to your safe and guns.
3. if ATF really wants to see a gun(s), have them list what they're looking for.
4. if it goes this far, lawyer up! You're a fool if you don't.
Both the agents who came to my door unexpected were guys who had transferred here from large cities. They both seemed a bit hyper and aggressive. They also calmed down when we talked everything through.
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fonejack54
US Veteran
ATF called me once and asked if I had a Bersa 380 stolen that I had purchased at Gander Mountain. I told them I had traded that gun at my LGS and the guy thanked me and hung after saying it had been found on a coffee table during a drug bust.
Come to find out my LGS was closed down because their record keeping was bad and they had 130 weapons unaccounted for.
Come to find out my LGS was closed down because their record keeping was bad and they had 130 weapons unaccounted for.
kozmic
Member
Fascinating thread Haris and most informative posts gentlemen! Thanks for some ideas of dos and don'ts with regards to our rights and what I had considered to be the feds' "perceived" rights!
Many of the things discussed here had never crossed my mind. Now I think I have an intelligent game plan should I ever get that call or knock on my door! My wife and kids will also be getting a memo on this too!
You guys rock!
Many of the things discussed here had never crossed my mind. Now I think I have an intelligent game plan should I ever get that call or knock on my door! My wife and kids will also be getting a memo on this too!
You guys rock!
BJoe
Member
I got a visit by 2 agents for buying 2 guns at the same time. They said they were afraid of gang activity. They looked at me, my house, my safe, my collection, and left.
BJoe
Member
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dcxplant
Member
Well this just goes to show ya; don't sell/trade yer guns without a transfer.
Put those SN's on the other guy's 4473!!
I'm glad it came out well, but it could have been a rope-a-dope very easily.
Government workers are like a jack-in-the-box. You just don't know how many cranks at the wheel will have a joker pop up on you.
Put those SN's on the other guy's 4473!!
I'm glad it came out well, but it could have been a rope-a-dope very easily.
Government workers are like a jack-in-the-box. You just don't know how many cranks at the wheel will have a joker pop up on you.
OP
haris1
Member
ATF visit
Today, I looked at his business card, very cool looking with ATF gold badge on it and I see under his name "Special Agent". Arent these the guys who really get into the heat of things and go after the bad guys? It bothered me enough that I called the main office in my state and asked the question"If i buy guns as an investment do I need a FFL?" The answer I got was "Yes, since you bought them to profit on them so you are in the gun business" Then I called the agent who visited me and asked him the same question.He said that if I read between the lines, he so much as told me that. He also stated it would be a good idea so when I sell them , there would be a good trail as to where they went since they woudl be in the log book.
PS: I downloaded all their forms today and will go forward on getting the license.The good news will be saving on FFL transfers and being able to mail at the post office which
is only available to licensed dealers. Postal regs forbid handgun mailing by nonlicensees.
Today, I looked at his business card, very cool looking with ATF gold badge on it and I see under his name "Special Agent". Arent these the guys who really get into the heat of things and go after the bad guys? It bothered me enough that I called the main office in my state and asked the question"If i buy guns as an investment do I need a FFL?" The answer I got was "Yes, since you bought them to profit on them so you are in the gun business" Then I called the agent who visited me and asked him the same question.He said that if I read between the lines, he so much as told me that. He also stated it would be a good idea so when I sell them , there would be a good trail as to where they went since they woudl be in the log book.
PS: I downloaded all their forms today and will go forward on getting the license.The good news will be saving on FFL transfers and being able to mail at the post office which
is only available to licensed dealers. Postal regs forbid handgun mailing by nonlicensees.
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PA Reb
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Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe there's a whole lot more to it than just filling out the forms and getting a license. If it were that easy, everyone would have one! I believe also you maybe should have asked the question a little differently like "if I buy alot of guns, do I ......." The answer would have probably been different as there is no law governing how many guns an individual buys and owns.
haris1,
All Federal law enforcement officers are classified as Special Agents.
A government agent has the power to negotiate treaties.
Special agents enforce federal law.
At least that is explanation I was given many years ago.
You might be interested to know that local law enforcement also gets a copy of the multiple gun sale that goes to ATF.
All Federal law enforcement officers are classified as Special Agents.
A government agent has the power to negotiate treaties.
Special agents enforce federal law.
At least that is explanation I was given many years ago.
You might be interested to know that local law enforcement also gets a copy of the multiple gun sale that goes to ATF.
...When you have two choices, the easy way is usually the best way if it is not illegal or immoral.
That's how I was looking at it. I am surprised to see some of the responses. I'd sure a lot rather talk with the agent on reasonably friendly terms than run the risk of some hot dog thinking he needs to come back with his buddies and their MP5s. As long as he identifies himself, is polite, and offers a reasonable explanation for his questions and makes reasonable requests...
I have always tried to be courteous to law enforcement. Always thought it was just being smart. Once in a while one of them doesn't deserve it. Most of the time, they do. Maybe I am just old fashioned?
I have had cause to contact ATF on three occasions asking for their help/advice. The agents I spoke with were excellent. No complaints at all.
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BLACKHAWKNJ
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Yes, be civil and be cordial, and remember the Five Words:
"I have nothing to say."
Back in 1990 I purchased two handguns at the same time from the same dealer, he showed me the
poster about reporting multiple sales to the same customer at the same time. I never heard from them.
"I have nothing to say."
Back in 1990 I purchased two handguns at the same time from the same dealer, he showed me the
poster about reporting multiple sales to the same customer at the same time. I never heard from them.
policerevolvercollector
Member
Several years ago, the ATF called me and scheduled an audit of my C&R FFL. They sent two non sworn personnel to my house (not agents). I showed them everything on my license and my bound book. Before they left,they commented on the fact that I was using the license exactly as it was intended - collecting. It was cordial.No problem. About half way through, I could tell that they were a little bored since I was in compliance. Again, they seemed pleased about this.... 
The ironic thing was that since I took a couple of hours off from work to meet them, I was the only one that was armed.
The ironic thing was that since I took a couple of hours off from work to meet them, I was the only one that was armed. ColbyBruce
Member
"Originally Posted by haris1
I am not bragging but just want to be informative. I have bought at least 200-300 guns a year for the last 3 years so I had to appear on their radar!"
Friend, you are not on their radar. They likely parked a flipping satellite over your home!! And JayK's home too, LOL!!
I am not bragging but just want to be informative. I have bought at least 200-300 guns a year for the last 3 years so I had to appear on their radar!"
Friend, you are not on their radar. They likely parked a flipping satellite over your home!! And JayK's home too, LOL!!
cmort666
Member
I have all the friends I need. I certainly don't need any in the BATFE.That's how I was looking at it. I am surprised to see some of the responses. I'd sure a lot rather talk with the agent on reasonably friendly terms than run the risk of some hot dog thinking he needs to come back with his buddies and their MP5s. As long as he identifies himself, is polite, and offers a reasonable explanation for his questions and makes reasonable requests...
I have always tried to be courteous to law enforcement. Always thought it was just being smart. Once in a while one of them doesn't deserve it. Most of the time, they do. Maybe I am just old fashioned?
I have had cause to contact ATF on three occasions asking for their help/advice. The agents I spoke with were excellent. No complaints at all.
As I said, they have a LONG history of problems with telling the truth and obeying the law.
You can very "courteously" tell them "Get a warrant." and "I have nothing to say without benefit of counsel."
Between the "how to lie under oath" video, "Fast & Furious", and the "Good Old Boy's Roundup", I have precisely ZERO trust in them or their word. I would NEVER talk to them without counsel present. Letting them into my home without a warrant is simply unimaginable.
You're perfectly free to waive all of the legal rights you want. Just make sure you do it with open eyes.
Never had the experience myself, and don't expect to. But if the local police stopped by for a 'friendly' chat and asked if the could come in and just look around, would you let them in?
Never forget, they are fishing for a reason to arrest you.
Never forget, they are fishing for a reason to arrest you.
Friend of mine who's a S&W AND Winchester collector had the same visit recently.
One look into his vault building gun room that looks like Charlton Heston's place and they were satisfied. He said it was all very professional and very low-key.
Unlike the LGS encounter with an agent investigating gang banger purchases that they allowed. That agent looked and talked like a gang-banger himself.
One look into his vault building gun room that looks like Charlton Heston's place and they were satisfied. He said it was all very professional and very low-key.
Unlike the LGS encounter with an agent investigating gang banger purchases that they allowed. That agent looked and talked like a gang-banger himself.
handejector
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That's how I was looking at it. I am surprised to see some of the responses. I'd sure a lot rather talk with the agent on reasonably friendly terms than run the risk of some hot dog thinking he needs to come back with his buddies and their MP5s. As long as he identifies himself, is polite, and offers a reasonable explanation for his questions and makes reasonable requests...
I have always tried to be courteous to law enforcement. Always thought it was just being smart. Once in a while one of them doesn't deserve it. Most of the time, they do. Maybe I am just old fashioned?
I have had cause to contact ATF on three occasions asking for their help/advice. The agents I spoke with were excellent. No complaints at all.
I have had an FFL off and on since 75.
I've had two complete audits of my records in that time.
They always come unannounced for the audits. Under the law, a dealer's records are open to inspection any given moment during your normal business hours. You know that when applying for the FFL, so the dealer has given consent by accepting the FFL.
That said-
They found a few minor errors on 4473's and one or two in my bound books BOTH times. Clerical mistakes mostly.
Both times, I was directed to make the corrections they wanted while they watched.
Then, BOTH times, they wrote me up as "Audited with no errors".
When they told me they had found errors, I guess I should have lawyered up and told them to leave.
But then, I always have had problems attaining the right attitude.
Hey, nobody's perfect!
By the way, at the upper levels of our government, I don't think the things you mention are of much concern - unfortunately.
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