ATF visited me,Has this happened to you ?Happy Ending!!

[baldeagle8888]

To show that I speak with knowledge, I've had a Federal Firearms license including a class 3 on and off since 1968 and so I'm aware that as a license holder, the ATF can show up "during normal store hours" and review any and all records. There has been several posts which talk about the fact that the ATF has the power and authority to talk with store and/or license holder. This is correct, but I believe that most of the posts are talking about "individuals".
Some posters have talked about lawyering up and requiring search warrants if agent/s desire to enter their premise's and/or requesting an interview. The standard comment by other posters imply that this is overkill "if you don't have anything to hide" or " that you don't want to be on their radar screen", then you shouldn't be so defensive.
I fine that position as being naive.
As was mentioned in a post, they are there because of some type of review or investigation and that could lead to
some sort of jeopardy, this in my mind, justifies the lawyer and search warrant position.

baldeagle8888

 

[Hack]

My wife claims I'm a member of 'the gun of the month club'. Although I've purchased a fraction of what other's posted, I would imagine my name would stand out in a serious BATFE audit of my dealer's 4473's.

To date, I have not been visited by them. And other than 'gifting' a number of rifles/shotguns to my son, I don't get rid of any firearms. Not to say I will never sell any, but just haven't yet. I do have a couple Winchester Model 70 Stainless Classic BOSS rifles that are duplicates and might find new owners.

 

[Bluecoat76]

In today's environment call your local police or Sheriff's Office.

 

[gk2410]

I had a visit years ago by three agents arriving in two vehicles. Very fast approach and very high state of readiness. They started asking about a specific Colt AR-15 I had purchased and had some work done on. They didn't know I was a cop and I could tell from their approach and demeanor that this wasn't a normal situation.

After I identified myself and asked what was going on, they told me that the shop that had worked on my AR had been illegally converting some AR's to full auto. Not sure they were convinced of my innocence, but I retrieved the gun and let them inspect it, and that was that. I guess I just picked the wrong shop.

I can't fault the agents as they were following up on the information available to them. I've been there, and while "Washington" may not always be on our side, these were street agents doing their job. I knew I had done nothing wrong and cooperated. Had no reason to be paranoid or call an attorney....

By the way, I've done lots of multiple purchases because I have three sons and would often buy 3 or 4 of something at a good price (i.e. I gave them Colt 6920's last Christmas). I've never had anyone check personally with me on the purchases, but my local dealer (another cop) has been asked by agents reviewing his books about the purchases, but they were satisfied with his explanations.

 

[rimfired]

I was an FFL holder for @ 15 years. Did not renew and took my records to their office @ five blocks from my house. I knew the Agents from Gun Shows and they were surprised by my dropping the FFL.

This was when Clinton got in office and they wanted to weed-out non storefront holders.

About a year later I was warned by a friend that a mutual aquaintance was now an informant for BATF having been caught with illegal guns and had been asking about me at the bike shop.

Informant calls me and says he looking for a couple guns to buy. I tell him he's welcome to check out my collection but I don't have what he's looking for.

He came over and I played dumb but I figured as I had nothing illegal I'd get it over with.

That was twenty years ago. Never heard from him or BATF again.

 

[Mickey D]

OP, Karma might be involved in some way.

 

[haris1]

Happy Ending on ATF/FFL issue

I applied for my license on May 24th.According to the GCA of 1968, ATF must approve you or deny you within 60 days from
receipt of your application.I was visited by an IOI (industry Operations Investigator) who told me she would recommend approval.The 60 day period was up July 24th. My license was issued August 1st and I received it today. The investigator was really nice enough to e mail me yesterday that she checked with the licensing center and I would get it any day and good luck with my gun business!! She added that she hoped that my experience with ATF was a positive one and it truly was.

Now i save on transfer fees and I can also ship through the post office which is off limits to non-licensees and ship for 1/2 the price of fedex!!

 

[the ringo kid]

Ive never had any problems with ATF here. I go to all the local gun shows and see several I am acquainted with and we always have friendly little chats. One time, I brought in a rare Mauser rifle I have and two agents at the show asked if I were selling as both were literally drooling over it. I smiled and said something like: We know Bears do s--t in the woods but I dont so--the answer was-nope. They had a great laugh about it and I said that seriously--I have not owned it long enough to get tired of it-but if im ever tired of looking at it and fondling it? ill give them first dibs on it.

 

[rburg]

We had a thread on just this issue maybe 10 years ago. The idea was the BATFE isn't your friend. If you treat them like they are, it just makes it easier to arrest you. They don't talk to you because they like you or want to be your friend. They want to arrest you. Its their job.

There was some very good advice written back then. The best was an article titled something like "What to do when the ATF comes' a knockin". It was basically directed at FFLs, but the advice holds for individuals. They even extended the advice to include local LEOs. Don't incriminate yourself. Remember in all this they're allowed to lie to you. It doesn't matter if they're doing it for fun or as part of an investigation. If you inadvertently lie to them, you've committed a crime. With talk, less is better. Remember the part about them not being your friend?

I'm guessing here the exact circumstance should dictate how you react to a visit. If they want to come in and inspect (fish), turn them down. If they want a specific gun or information on it, tell them you'll get back with them then consider calling an attorney. The best circumstance is when you still have the gun. When you find it, offer to take it to them. Don't let them inspect your collection. They only get to see the gun mentioned, nothing else. If they don't like that, tell them to leave and get an attorney. You do pay lawyers big bucks. This is one of those times they need to earn it. If you don't even remember the gun, speak with an attorney first. The "I can't remember" is OK for an answer, but once you use it, you need to stick with it. Follow your attorney's advice.

Oh, and as an unpaid commercial for Caje, pay your lawyer!

 

[GKC]

Yes, I have had a visit from the ATF, at my home, a couple of years ago. They didn't call ahead. The doorbell rang, and there were two men standing there...both were dressed in jeans, western shirts, had longish hair, and were driving a pickup truck. They showed me their badges/credentials, and were very polite. They said their records showed I had been buying a large number of handguns, and wanted to know if they could talk to me about it. (I had been buying a large number of handguns...as well as selling or trading them...all through local gun shops; all were handguns except for two shotguns....no rifles.) I was kind of stunned, and the first thing I could think to ask was, "Do you have a warrant?" They very politely said no, they had just hoped to have a conversation, and if I didn't want to talk to them, it was fine...but if they needed more information, they might come back with a warrant. It was not said in any way that came across as a threat. I talked to them a little longer, and it was obvious they knew the shops I had been buying from, and the kinds of guns, and I became more comfortable with them.

So, I invited them in, we sat down in my home office (where my safe is) and we went over the guns I had on hand, and why I was buying/selling/trading so often (answer: personal preference, and I certainly wasn't making a profit, nor was I selling to private individuals.) That only took a few minutes, and actually it was very perfunctory...and then we talked guns - pros and cons of various models, and what we liked and didn't like - for about 30 minutes, which was longer than they had spend talking about my actual guns. Then they left, and as they were leaving, they said they really didn't have any concerns with me, because most of the arms traffic, especially to Mexico, involved either rifles or multiple purchases of the same make/model handgun....but, when they saw high volume like this, they just did a routine check, mainly to make sure I wasn't running an unlicensed gun shop or something.

They couldn't have been more polite...but after they left, I called the Dallas office and spoke to the supervisor there (the two agents had given me their cards.) I mentioned that I was surprised that they didn't arrive in a black SUV, with black suits, white side wall haircuts, and sunglasses with ear buds, etc. Maybe a helicopter hovering overhead. The supervisor actually laughed and said, "This is Texas, you know?" He also confirmed that it was very routine, and in fact they had already reported in and had no continuing concerns.

I'm sure that some of you will think I shouldn't have let them in...or maybe I should have demanded a warrant...but, I had nothing to hide, I had done nothing wrong, and all my activity was done through local gun shops with paperwork completed. The two agents couldn't have been more polite, and were just regular guys who liked guns themselves. I've heard no more from them.

Had I acted differently, it may have gone differently...and less pleasantly.

 

[Bullet Bob]

One thing I don't understand is why the people who are obviously dealing without a license don't get more heat.

I'm not saying that they are not honest folks, but on the various gunsites you can see the same people who always have guns for sale, and don't have an FFL.

Since they're out in the open, so to speak, it's pretty easy to see who they are. I'm not talking about someone selling off a collection, or just your average Bob selling a couple to buy something else, but the guys who have several guns for sale for months or years as an obvious business without the expense and benefit of an FFL.

 

[ibewbull]

Engaging in the business

One thing I don't understand is why the people who are obviously dealing without a license don't get more heat.

I'm not saying that they are not honest, law-abiding folks, but on the various gunsites you can see the same people who always have guns for sale, and don't have an FFL.

Since they're out in the open, so to speak, it's pretty easy to see who they are. I'm not talking about someone selling off a collection, or just your average Joe selling a couple to buy something else, but the guys who have several guns for sale for months or years as a business.

I know some folks who sell 10 or 12 guns a year.
Some of them tried getting an FFL and some had given theirs up over time. It seems if you can get the " SECRETE NUMBER" of gun sales correct then you atr good to go.
What the number is is beyond my understanding. I am not in that league by a long shot.
My point being as individual sellers we must also be in it for profit too. I spend more than I have ever made on a sale.
I don't recall ever making multiple purchases. If it were to have the chance to buy multiple guns, I think I would put a week between purchases just to avoid any grief.

 

[O2Guy]

Well this just goes to show ya; don't sell/trade yer guns without a transfer.

Put those SN's on the other guy's 4473!!

A lot of these stories were from guns that were purchased on a 4473. And they still got a visit from the ATF.
Here in SC, it's legal to sell or buy from an individual. Many people prefer it that way.

 

[BJoe]

A lot of these stories were from guns that were purchased on a 4473. And they still got a visit from the ATF.
Here in SC, it's legal to sell or buy from an individual. Many people prefer it that way.

Amen. Mine were on 4473's and my FFL told me I " YOU MAY GET A VISIT." Shortly after I did.

 

[haris1]

One thing I don't understand is why the people who are obviously dealing without a license don't get more heat.

I'm not saying that they are not honest folks, but on the various gunsites you can see the same people who always have guns for sale, and don't have an FFL.

Since they're out in the open, so to speak, it's pretty easy to see who they are. I'm not talking about someone selling off a collection, or just your average Bob selling a couple to buy something else, but the guys who have several guns for sale for months or years as an obvious business without the expense and benefit of an FFL.

Actually they go to all the shows and they focus much more on the ones who cross state lines to deliver handguns which will put them in the pokey and have all or part of their guns confiscated. Many individuals go to really large shows across state lines and display handguns that they deliver for cash and they dont have a clue that its sooo risky.The ones who are within their state are only dealers without a license if you can really prove it which takes a lot more evidence. I set up at a local show for the first time in 25 years and many people after they asked me the price,started to pull out money and when I asked them for ID they said they were from Missouri or Oklahoma.I politely explained that I could not sell them a handgun.
One offered to come back with an Arkansas buddy and I told him "Thats a straw man" sorry, its not for sale to you guys"
Some of those people may very well be informants so my
advice is for you private sellers to keep your noses clean.
Always get ID from the buyer for two reasons: First, to make sure he is not an out of stater which may be a setup.Second (and many people dont care) I want their name and DL number. By Jiminy if I sell a gun and it kills someone a month later, I want to know where it went even if its a pvt sale. The guy you sold it to may be a stand up guy but maybe not the next guy who steals it in a burglary. Be responsible-Know where your guns went!!!

 

[Badkarma 1]

I got "flagged" last year, seems I bought/ traded a number if handguns in a short amount of time, like 5 or 6.
Instead of the obligatory visit, the dealers wife told them I was an "accumulator of things that go bang"!
So I let it go...for now!
Yes you can be cordial, invite them in, and have coffee with them. BUT you better have a card with a lawyers name on it handy just in case! And it never hurts to ask for a reason for the visit before letting them in! And you are in no way compelled to bend to their wishes!
We all have had "discussions" on our rights on this forum, and I find it rather absurd that some would waive their 4th and 5th Amendment rights just to keep the peace.
My own stance is, as long as they're nice about it I might comply, get aggressive or arrogant and you'll be asked to leave! Become hostile, and you'll have a problem on your hands! Dale

 

[GKC]

A lot of these stories were from guns that were purchased on a 4473. And they still got a visit from the ATF.

I could be wrong, but the pattern seems to be a high volume of guns purchased over time, or several in a very short time...something that so-called "normal" people wouldn't do.

 

[hangnoose]

ffl's

back in the day ffl's were cheap and simple to get. now it's a lot more $ and red tape. I don't buy/sell enough to warrant it. I have a small group of friends that collect also and none of us want to sell to criminals. our only requirement is to visualize a resident state drivers license. not required to write a bill of sale or save it for any period of time. the only thing a dr lic tells me is that the guy might be a resident criminal. I've had guys balk when I ask to see their licenses. they should just track the bad guys and provide a free/fast data base of do not sell to individuals, rather than make law abiders jump through hoops and prove themselves worthy of their constitutional rights.

 

[daveyc]

I just don't understand the reasoning behind the whole "I don't have anything to hide" rationale for letting a gov't agent into your home w/o a warrant. It has nothing to do w/that. It has to do with keeping a gov't "honest" and in compliance with the law. If everyone just let's them in, it will become expected protocol. Remember, rights are like muscles, when not exercised, they will atrophy and die. Govt agents are not your friends. We should treat them profesionally, but they have no right yo be in your home without probable cause and a warrant.

 

[TIMETRIPPER]

One thing I don't understand is why the people who are obviously dealing without a license don't get more heat.

That would be profiling!

John