Blackcloud2
US Veteran
Beautiful weapon! I was really just a kid when it happened and I had never heard of the "deputized civilian". It sounds like he had a rifle; was that given to him by the police?
AUSTIN PD MOD 20-2 HEAVY DUTY ARRIVES IN TEXAS
- Thread starter 1Aspenhill
- Start date
DHENRY
Member
Blackcloud2
During the attack, the Austin PD quickly discovered that their sidearms and shotguns were 'outgunned' by Whitman's aresenal.
Civilians with game rifles came forward and joined in, attempting to stop the carnage.
One of Ramirez' recollections was that of all the bullets flying over his head from the shooters on the ground.
During the attack, the Austin PD quickly discovered that their sidearms and shotguns were 'outgunned' by Whitman's aresenal.
Civilians with game rifles came forward and joined in, attempting to stop the carnage.
One of Ramirez' recollections was that of all the bullets flying over his head from the shooters on the ground.
OP
1Aspenhill
US Veteran, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
Lee and everyone else,
This gun was shipped about 18 months prior to the Tower incident. I know that APD has been asked if they have the records as to who carried the individual firearms and unless something is discovered, no one knows. It would be neat to find that out.
Thanks,
Bill
This gun was shipped about 18 months prior to the Tower incident. I know that APD has been asked if they have the records as to who carried the individual firearms and unless something is discovered, no one knows. It would be neat to find that out.
Thanks,
Bill
I have a long email from John R. Boyd (Lt., APD, Ret.) which give a substantially different account of the Whitman shooting. Lt. Boyd states that there were, in fact, six other Austin officers in the tower stairwell that day (Houston McCoy, Jerry Day, Philip Connor, Harold Moe, George Shepard and Boyd).
It further states, in part, that: "Martinez and civilian Crum forced their way out onto the deck while the other officers were removing two dead citizens and two wounded citizens and before the team was ready. This caused McCoy (the only officer with a shotgun) and Day to follow. The door opening onto the deck was on the South side. Whitman was crouched in the NW corner. Martinez and McCoy went around the SE corner while Day and Crum made their way toward the SW corner. As Martinez and McCoy reached the NE corner, Crum accidentally discharged the lever action .30 cal rifle he was carrying (narrowly missing Day who was in front of him) and jammed the rifle trying to eject the shell. This directed Whitman's attention to the South as Martinez and McCoy came around the NE corner. Martinez fired all six rounds from his .38 cal. service revolver, missing all six times ( the distance is about 50+ ft). Five rounds hit the west wall where Whitman was sitting and the other round apparently went over the wall. As Whitman was turning, rifle in hand, McCoy fired two rounds of 00 buckshot to his head/neck killing him instantly and taking out both eyes at the same time. Martinez threw down his service revolver (we are trained to reload when empty), grabbed the shotgun from McCoy, ran to Whitman and fired a round point blank into his left shoulder (basically shooting a dead man).
It is important to note that at this time it wasn't known if there was more than one sniper at work that day. McCoy drew his service revolver and began looking for more snipers who might have been there. At that time Martinez ran past McCoy and back into the reception area where we were, shouting 'I got him, I got him'.
All of us are eternally grateful that Crum was not the first person to come back into the reception room. A man in civilian clothes carrying a rifle into a room with four police officers who had just heard a volley of shots from the observation deck would have surely been shot to death. When we got onto the observation deck where our portable radio would work again, Moe radioed for the police to stop shooting from below and ask the police dept to notify the media to ask the armed citizens (there must have been hundereds by that time) to cease fire too. Martinez eventually returned to the observation deck, retrieved his service revolver from McCoy and left again. At that time, as far as we (other than McCoy) knew Martinez had shot Whitman; after all he said he did. In his state of mind, he may have really believed that he did. The autopsy would tell quite a different story."
This is just another example of how differently people who participate in or witness high stress events can differ in their perceptions.
Bob
It further states, in part, that: "Martinez and civilian Crum forced their way out onto the deck while the other officers were removing two dead citizens and two wounded citizens and before the team was ready. This caused McCoy (the only officer with a shotgun) and Day to follow. The door opening onto the deck was on the South side. Whitman was crouched in the NW corner. Martinez and McCoy went around the SE corner while Day and Crum made their way toward the SW corner. As Martinez and McCoy reached the NE corner, Crum accidentally discharged the lever action .30 cal rifle he was carrying (narrowly missing Day who was in front of him) and jammed the rifle trying to eject the shell. This directed Whitman's attention to the South as Martinez and McCoy came around the NE corner. Martinez fired all six rounds from his .38 cal. service revolver, missing all six times ( the distance is about 50+ ft). Five rounds hit the west wall where Whitman was sitting and the other round apparently went over the wall. As Whitman was turning, rifle in hand, McCoy fired two rounds of 00 buckshot to his head/neck killing him instantly and taking out both eyes at the same time. Martinez threw down his service revolver (we are trained to reload when empty), grabbed the shotgun from McCoy, ran to Whitman and fired a round point blank into his left shoulder (basically shooting a dead man).
It is important to note that at this time it wasn't known if there was more than one sniper at work that day. McCoy drew his service revolver and began looking for more snipers who might have been there. At that time Martinez ran past McCoy and back into the reception area where we were, shouting 'I got him, I got him'.
All of us are eternally grateful that Crum was not the first person to come back into the reception room. A man in civilian clothes carrying a rifle into a room with four police officers who had just heard a volley of shots from the observation deck would have surely been shot to death. When we got onto the observation deck where our portable radio would work again, Moe radioed for the police to stop shooting from below and ask the police dept to notify the media to ask the armed citizens (there must have been hundereds by that time) to cease fire too. Martinez eventually returned to the observation deck, retrieved his service revolver from McCoy and left again. At that time, as far as we (other than McCoy) knew Martinez had shot Whitman; after all he said he did. In his state of mind, he may have really believed that he did. The autopsy would tell quite a different story."
This is just another example of how differently people who participate in or witness high stress events can differ in their perceptions.
Bob
Bill,
I just looked at my copy of Ray Martinez's book and on page 76 there is a UPI/Corbis picture of him coming out of the Tower on August 1, 1966. Very clearly, you can see the backstrap of a nickel HD in his holster. If anyone could find a copy of that original photo it might be possible to blow up that back strap enough to see the APD marking.
Bob
I just looked at my copy of Ray Martinez's book and on page 76 there is a UPI/Corbis picture of him coming out of the Tower on August 1, 1966. Very clearly, you can see the backstrap of a nickel HD in his holster. If anyone could find a copy of that original photo it might be possible to blow up that back strap enough to see the APD marking.
Bob
DHENRY
Member
Bob,
The original is key...That illustration in the book is WAY too grainy to tell anything other than the fact that it is, indeed, a nickel revolver!
These stories remind me of our officers' interviews with accident witnesses: Six people, six versions of the same story.
An interesting point to ponder, while we're at it...
On the face of it, I would put as much (or more) credence in Martinez' version as I would any recaps from superior(s) who garnered their information from multiple interviews after the fact.
And now, on to the Kennedy assassination...
The original is key...That illustration in the book is WAY too grainy to tell anything other than the fact that it is, indeed, a nickel revolver!
These stories remind me of our officers' interviews with accident witnesses: Six people, six versions of the same story.
An interesting point to ponder, while we're at it...
On the face of it, I would put as much (or more) credence in Martinez' version as I would any recaps from superior(s) who garnered their information from multiple interviews after the fact.
And now, on to the Kennedy assassination...
OP
1Aspenhill
US Veteran, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
Bob,
I have a copy of the original photo and it is as DHenry says, grainy and you can only tell that he has a nickel revolver in his holster. We'll keep on trying to find out what the rack and serial number was.
Thanks again,
Bill
I have a copy of the original photo and it is as DHenry says, grainy and you can only tell that he has a nickel revolver in his holster. We'll keep on trying to find out what the rack and serial number was.
Thanks again,
Bill
Thanks Bill for the opportunity to add some photos to your thread. I'm glad you were finally able to find one for your collection!
Here's a couple of pictures of my 20-2. It was refinished at the factory in 1971 and it had the APD markings on the backstrap removed at some point. The stocks are not original to the gun; they were borrowed from a minty 1966 Highway Patrolman (and he wants them back!).
Here's what may have happened to another 20-2 per Skeeter's article in a 1981 Shooting Times magazine:
Here's my Missouri State Patrol Transitional HD (repaired/refinished by Gene Williams) with the Austin 20-2.
Here's a couple of pictures of my 20-2. It was refinished at the factory in 1971 and it had the APD markings on the backstrap removed at some point. The stocks are not original to the gun; they were borrowed from a minty 1966 Highway Patrolman (and he wants them back!).
Here's what may have happened to another 20-2 per Skeeter's article in a 1981 Shooting Times magazine:
Here's my Missouri State Patrol Transitional HD (repaired/refinished by Gene Williams) with the Austin 20-2.
1118AD,
Yours would have been in the first shipment to the APD and shipped on June 3, 1952 if I'm not mistaken. Are you sure it's a 5"? What is the backstrap marking?
Bob
Yours would have been in the first shipment to the APD and shipped on June 3, 1952 if I'm not mistaken. Are you sure it's a 5"? What is the backstrap marking?
Bob
OP
1Aspenhill
US Veteran, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
Bob,
I don't think his is an APD gun, just a nice HD!
Bill
I don't think his is an APD gun, just a nice HD!
Bill
OP
1Aspenhill
US Veteran, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
Jay,
I just really noticed your Missouri Transitional HD. Nice gun-any interesting history on it?
Bill
I just really noticed your Missouri Transitional HD. Nice gun-any interesting history on it?
Bill
RABULL
Member
Very, very nice...Thanks for sharing with us.......
Bill,
The Transitional shipped to the MSP on May 12, 1948. All serial & assembly numbers match, except the stocks which are serial numbered a little later and likely got switched around at the MSP during one of it's many rebuilds/reblues.
I found it in a pawnshop looking like it needed a friend. Per your recommendation I sent it to Gene Williams for a little Texas sunshine and some spa treatment. He did a bang up job getting her ready for a lot more years of shooting. I've got more money in it than I should have and it still has some unfixable flaws, but it's one of my absolute favorite guns, ever, and that's saying something!
BTW, you do have this one enetered in the SWCA Forum database.
Jay
SWCA #1836
OP
1Aspenhill
US Veteran, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
Jay,
All 50 of the 20-2's are in the DB.
Thanks,
Bill
All 50 of the 20-2's are in the DB.
Thanks,
Bill
OP
1Aspenhill
US Veteran, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
Are there any other 20-2's out there?
Bill
Bill
Bill:
I recently found one that appears to be original. I am attaching photos of the left grip frame which do not indicate any factory refinish. Assembly number is same as in crane area. No shroud markings. The serial number of S255888 is duplicated on the cylinder, although it is in an unusual place, on the rear face but down low enough to be covered by the ejector star when it is at rest. The gun has some blemishes like some dark marks under the stocks and a ding or two on the front sight, etc. It is fairly tight and is timed correctly. Someone has taken pretty good care of it for the last several years. I think the serial number is the last one listed for the APD 20-2 in the S&WCA listing but apparently the APD number of 207 was not applied in the order of serial numbers as several have later APD numbers. I think this is a quite cool revolver. It cleaned up nicely.
Ed
I recently found one that appears to be original. I am attaching photos of the left grip frame which do not indicate any factory refinish. Assembly number is same as in crane area. No shroud markings. The serial number of S255888 is duplicated on the cylinder, although it is in an unusual place, on the rear face but down low enough to be covered by the ejector star when it is at rest. The gun has some blemishes like some dark marks under the stocks and a ding or two on the front sight, etc. It is fairly tight and is timed correctly. Someone has taken pretty good care of it for the last several years. I think the serial number is the last one listed for the APD 20-2 in the S&WCA listing but apparently the APD number of 207 was not applied in the order of serial numbers as several have later APD numbers. I think this is a quite cool revolver. It cleaned up nicely.
Ed
OP
1Aspenhill
US Veteran, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
Ed,
Thanks for posting another beautiful HD! I don't think we will ever know how or in what order the guns were marked. Great that your gun has not been refinished! Thanks for sharing and have a great 4th!
Bill
Thanks for posting another beautiful HD! I don't think we will ever know how or in what order the guns were marked. Great that your gun has not been refinished! Thanks for sharing and have a great 4th!
Bill
Bill:
Is the backstrap lettering of "Austin" on yours like this one, with the Capital A larger than the capital STIN? I had a heck of a time getting a decent picture of the marking due to the reflection on the curvature of the frame.
Ed
Is the backstrap lettering of "Austin" on yours like this one, with the Capital A larger than the capital STIN? I had a heck of a time getting a decent picture of the marking due to the reflection on the curvature of the frame.
Ed
Great find, Ed. Congratulations! Hope to see it sometime.
Bob
Bob
