Bad Load? The .38 Special 158 gr. RNL

I would bet that world wide, in center fire handgun cartridges, the 38 special has put more people in to the dirt than all other calibers combined. Anyone who thinks it isn't enough gun is wrong.
There are always exceptions. A single 158 grain RN bullet fired by Jack Ruby killed Oswald pretty well. The bullet caused considerable damage inside of Oswald's torso. He was unconcious when they loaded him in to the ambulance just 2 or 3 minutes after being shot.
None of us would choose the load today, but none of us would volunteer to get shot by one either.
 
I would bet that world wide, in center fire handgun cartridges, the 38 special has put more people in to the dirt than all other calibers combined...


No, as once you leave the USA 9mm rules the roost for handguns in the World. Until the 1980's the .38 was probably the most prevalent in the World, however that has changed with the proliferation of Wondernines, of which Glock is foremost. As well, violence (especially narco & terrorism) have exploded since the 70's with far more violent deaths as a result.
 
Hi Bryan,

I ran across a couple of boxes of factory Federal .38 +P LSWC (not HPs) when I was digging around in the ammo stores today, and I thought of you and this thread - as well as the general appreciation you have brought to the humble-yet-effective .38 Special over the years. I saw those boxes and thought, "A person could use these for defensive use with absolutely no worries." Funny how we always chase that dragon of the last 5% of performance, when gun/ammo combos that are perfectly fine languish unloved on the shelves.

That said, I agree that the bullet shape of the LSWC is clearly preferable to that of the RNL. And I agree that I wouldn't sweat too badly if all I had was the RNL.

Shot-placement and adequate penetration are what's needed . . . the tiny dancing angels are good for discussion with friends, but are probably not too important in the real world.

Yeah Erich;

I think your summation is the best yet seen here. It's grand to pontificate on favored loads but shot-placement and adequate penetration loom large over the rest of it.
 
... A single 158 grain RN bullet fired by Jack Ruby killed Oswald pretty well. The bullet caused considerable damage inside of Oswald's torso. He was unconcious when they loaded him in to the ambulance just 2 or 3 minutes after being shot...

Agreed, but during that 2 to 3 minutes after being hit, if Oswald had been armed, I would bet he would have been able to shoot his attacker. RN ammo (of any caliber) will certainly kill, it just takes longer, which could be fatal in a self-defense situation.

I will stick with HP or SWC whenever possible.
 
Agreed, but during that 2 to 3 minutes after being hit, if Oswald had been armed, I would bet he would have been able to shoot his attacker. RN ammo (of any caliber) will certainly kill, it just takes longer, which could be fatal in a self-defense situation.

I will stick with HP or SWC whenever possible.

Sorry, i'm going to have to disagree. Have you ever seen the
footage of the shooting? I've seen the film clip of Ruby
shooting Oswald a few times on TV during documentaries
about the Kennedy assassination. After being shot Oswald
would have in no way been able to return fire in my opinion.
Remember also that Ruby was immediately grabbed by the
officers present, preventing more shots from him?
 
I might as well comment, as I have read this all the way through.
I really like the 38 Special for my general use firearm. I conceal carry one almost daily. Infact I have a 315 Night Guard on my belt as I type this.

I reload lots and lots of 38 Special 158 grain Round Nose lead bullets. I also shoot 158 RNL ammunition in huge quantities. My load is the old stand buy 5.0 Unique. Lately I have also been trying out some 20/28 shotgun powder under the 158. I live in rural Missouri, in the Ozarks. I shoot a Steel Match one month and a Defensive Pistol match the next. The 158 RNL bullets take over steel well. They poke holes in cardboard silhouettes with gusto. I also carry them for general purpose ammunition when running around the farm or in the woods. They also work well on snakes, armodillows, etc.
As was mention a few times above the 158 Round Nose ammunition is very fast to speed load a revolver with. I have both Safariland Comp III's and Jet Loaders I use in matches. Nothing reloads in a 38 Special faster than a round nose bullet.
If I were to make an uneducated guess from pure observation, My bet would be that more Round Nose 38 Special ammunition is sold that all other 38 Special loadings. WHY?? Because it still does what it always has done well. Makes a great general purpose, soft shooting loading. Very little ammunition is shot in self defense situations. Most ammunition is shot at targets, tin cans, etc.

In my opinion the 38 Special 158 Round Nose Lead loading will be around for a very long time to come. Not because it is such a great SD loading, which it is not. But because it is a very good general purpose loading, with mild recoil. Us match shooters will continue to use it in huge quantities as well.

Just for info my SD carry ammunition in 38 Special is the Speer 135 GDHP +P, or Speer 125 GDHP +P.

Bob
 
As I recall, the change to swc from rn and +p velocity elevated the sd expectation of the ,38 Special up to that of the .45ACP fmj standard. Fwiw.

Regards,

Tam 3
 
Judging by context, and recalling the cirumstances of the original comment, I kinda think he meant self defense expectation, not standard deviation.
 
Ah! Now, that you explain it, what Tam 3 says makes perfect sense. :)

That's what I get for having the abbreviation myopia of a handloader. :) Not as bad as when I was discussing the film abbreviated POTC on a forum and I was talking about The Passion of the Christ whereas everyone else was talking about The Pirates of the Caribbean . . . that was interesting, I'll tell you what! ;)
 
I have a Taurus 605 and I just tried some different grains and types from the Rem 130gr UMC,Federal 158 RN,Win .357JHP 110gr and they all shoot well. Yesterday I stumbled on a new round from Hornady. The Critical Defense .38special Lite 90gr FTX, Anyone tried it yet?
 
Cptslick;

If you ever test those 90gr FTX....................
a lot of us would like to see a thread on it, since Hornady stated that it will do the job and also expand in a snub nose.


Sorry to cut into this thread.......................but I asked about this bullet and got lots
of ideas and thoughts, but no one actually shot the load.
 
I have nothing but a warm regard for the .38 Special and the revolvers in which I have fired it. From wad cutters to various loads that I concocted that were hot enough to make Super Man run for cover, I've not had any bad .38 Special loads. The overwhelming vast majority of all my handgun shooting has been with S&W revolvers firing 158/160 cast lead SWC bullets over 5.0 gr. of Unique... which is a basic service level .38 Special load. It has worked on anything animate or inanimate. Today I managed to blunder into a decent 6" 19-4. I will hopefully get to try it out either tomorrow or Sunday afternoon after church. I expect it will be a pleasure to shoot. I've not had any such revolvers that were ever not accurate and fun to shoot!
 
Hornady Manufacturing Company :: Ammunition :: Handgun :: Choose by Caliber :: 38 Special :: 38 Special 90 gr FTX® Critical Defense® LITE

I don't mind the thread drift. I'd not heard of this load before.

Only one opinion but I wouldn't be at all interested in the use of any such lightweight bullets in the .38 Special revolver dedicated to self-defense. Piddly .380 automatics use light bullets like these. The .38 Special is more capable than that. And no, I don't volunteer to be shot with a .38 Special load featuring a 90 grain bullet.

Perspective is a funny thing. A generation has come to be convinced that we must have ever lighter, ever smaller handguns. So now we feel we need loadings with lighter bullets for reduced recoil. We gotta have flea-weight .38 Special snubs these days. So we water the .38 Special down to .380 ACP levels.

To come back to the 158 grain round nose lead bullet in the .38 Special; I'd sooner choose a 158 grain round nose lead factory load than I would any 90 grain load. I'm no fan of the 158 grain round nose load for personal defense but I'd feel better with a cylinder-full of 'em than I would with cylinder-full of the mistaken notion that "less is more." The guns are more of a talisman to ward off evil than something one really would want to gun fight with.

If such a load is marketed and gains traction then it's an indication that the revolvers have just flat become too light to properly serve the person interested in personal protection.

I was born too late.
 
Last edited:
Seems like I recall a 95g cup point or some such in 9mmP back in the '70's or '80's. Perhaps an attempt to get a 9mm that would expand reliably back when that was definitely a hit or miss proposition. A 90g .38 Special would seem like a reprise of that load, and I expect it will prove to have the same strengths and weaknesses, whatever they were.

I have no complaint about ballistic gelatin tests, because they clearly serve a purpose in helping us understand what bullets will & won't do in flesh. We need something else, though, to show us what bullet and bone do to each other. I believe that is where lead or softcast bullets shine, at least in FP, TC, or SWC profiles. From what I understand, roundnose bullets tend to glance off or skid along bone in many situations, and so do FMJ and JHP, unless these bullets strike bone very squarely, in which case they drill caliber-size holes. The lighter and/or pointier they are, the more they tend to deflect or skid. Soft lead, according to Thompson-LaGarde, tends to flatten against bone and smash out large portions of it. (Regardless of that test's shortcomings, I think they were in a very good position to evaluate bone damage and penetration.)

Now, since most SD shootings are close range, face-to-face, what proportion of a human torso presents bony structure to an impacting bullet? More specifically, how much of the upper CNS is protected by bone? If we accept that upper CNS hits or instantaneous loss of blood pressure are the only ways for pistol bullets to physically stop a human being immediately, how much target area are we talking about?

You see what I'm driving at. I can accept that expanding (or tumbling) bullets create more tissue damage & blood loss than a flat-nose lead bullet making the same hit--unless the hit location is such that the FN penetrates much deeper and does more damage. But for an instant stop. . .how do the numbers look? (And even then, it won't be possible to quantify the extent to which a JHP may actually penetrate instead of skidding, or the extent to which lead bullets would indeed deflect off of bony surfaces.) Wider, heavier, sharper-shouldered, flatter, faster bullets, on average, seem to increase the odds in our favor. Every load represents a variety of trade-offs.
 
Hi Louisianaman;

I gotta get the yard mowed and one other chore done then I'm off to the range or the lake to do the "Mother-Of-All" chronograph tests on 200 grain .38 S&W velocities.

Results may take me a few days to compile and write up, as busy as I've been lately but should show up pretty soon.

Back to .38 Special round nose 158 grain loads, I agree with this statement as far as I've observed it. I'll admit that's not too much.

"Soft lead, according to Thompson-LaGarde, tends to flatten against bone and smash out large portions of it."

Seems that what the .38 Special needs is a bullet of at least 158 grains with a soft lead wadcutter or semi-wadcutter shape. A "+P" type loading with even heavier bullet of that shape, up to 200 grains, would be good medicine. All this "short-barreled" stuff could be dispensed with.
 
Back in 1920, Western Cart. Co. (Olin) came out with a 200gr LRN load that the LE used for a time. It would stop the bad guys but failed on penetrating Glass, which was the down fall of the load.
 
Speaking of LRN ammo can anyone tell me about when Remington was selling ammo packaged like this, and what value if any it may have?


I apolagize for the bad picture in advance. But as you can see the box has a product code of RS262, on the side of the box it reads " NON-Corrsive KLEANBORE NON-ERROSIVE" printed inside a green strip which is on a red background. On the back it also states that the cartridges are adapted for S&W Military & Police, Outdoorsman's, Colt Official Poice, Poice Positive Special, SAA, Offiers' Model, Shootin Master and New Service Arms. I'm thinking that the ammo was made sometime during the 1950's as there is no child safety warning but I'm unsure.
 
RNL bullets, at standard velocity need to be almost pure lead to be effective. Most all on the market today are much harder than they should be.

Why is the .38 RNL bullet maligned, when .36 round balls from a Colt Navy was reasonably effective for such a long period?
(Medical advancements aside)

If you are going to use LRN bullets for defense, make certain they are pure lead.
 
Attn: 336A

That looks like late 40s or early 50s mfg. I'm not a collector, so I don't know the value, but they're worth shooting, if only to show how much hotter these original service loads were, as opposed to today's 158RN production. Enjoy them!
 
I never tried the LRN ammo until a few months ago. I had purchased quite some time before that, as in about a year or two. Much to my delight the Magtech ammo performed flawlessly in my M10. I had some reservations about using it as I remember hearing something about bad primers with this ammo not to long ago. The ammo shot very well for me and was much cleaner than I expected, I think it would be a good field load for squirrel and grouse.

I have also taken to using the Lyman #358665 RNFP with some W231 it shots about the same as does the magtech although the bullet is slightly heavier. While it is true that the LRN has been surpassed as a SD it is accurate and I'd certainly use it if it were all I had.
I believe that Magtech as well as S and B have somewhat harder primers than most commercial brands. This only seems to be a problem if you had your trigger significantly lightened thus lowering the kinetic energy with which it hits. Repeat hits usually do the trick.
 
Those lead-eating condors may be eating our target loads into history. It happened with waterfowl ammo.

Never shot a .38 LRN in my life. Someone sold me a box of reloads at a range when my gun was new back in the seventies. They were 148 grain LWC, bullet seated inside the casing. Never saw anything like it before. Bought another box as I was leaving. That and the Model 14-3 were married, and they paint a pretty picture on paper. I may use something else for SD, or even a larger caliber or gauge, but why fix something if it isn't broken?

That's why I read this thread, so maybe I'll know what they are like.

Shot a deer with a 50 caliber smokepole and a round bullet one time, and stopped using them when the deer I shot in the temple woke up while I was kneeling next to it and ran off. Had to shoot it again. Scared heck out of me sitting alone in the dark. Hasn't ever happened again, though.
 
WOW!
What a GREAT thread!
I remember these arguments from the '70s.

I have only one thought, which may well be based on a faulty memory.

I thought I remember a defense of the RNL .38 Special that stated that during its hayday it had the best record of stopping the bad guys of any police round.

I'd like to know if anyone has evidence supporting or disproving that.
 
The .38 RNL bullet/load is great for range work, and works OK on rabbit-and squirrel-size critters--sometimes--, and maybe even on possums and small coons. But there is a reason a lot of old cops consider them the original 'Cop Killer Bullet'. They just don't work good on people. And for those who have a few anecdotes on the bad guys who dropped on the spot with one shot to the big toe, there is a high ratio of 'didn't stop' to 'stop'.
That bovine-processed fertilizer nonsense of 'Are you gonna stand there and let me shoot you with it?' is what people smarter than me call a 'specious argument'; I've heard the same baloney about .25, .32, .380, .22, and other such nonsense. I'm not gonna stand still and let you run over me with a Yugo, either, but I won't recommend it as a good idea for daily transportation.
The RNL .38 load is not, and never was, a good choice for defensive duties. Just because a lot of chair-polishing office wonks made the line cops use it for way too long doesn't make it right.
Use it for what it's good for--poking little holes in paper, training new shooters who are leery of recoil, and maybe to dispatch the occasional small critter. But load your defensive gun with something that will be more likely to let you come back and tell the tale.

Then there's the scary silliness of using the Taurus Junk revolver with any .410 load, and thinking it's a viable choice for defensive purposes--but that's a whole 'nother thread. Acebow
 
Sorry, i'm going to have to disagree. Have you ever seen the
footage of the shooting? I've seen the film clip of Ruby
shooting Oswald a few times on TV during documentaries
about the Kennedy assassination. After being shot Oswald
would have in no way been able to return fire in my opinion.
Remember also that Ruby was immediately grabbed by the
officers present, preventing more shots from him?

I found this picture of Oswald being shot. I agree the RNL is not the preferred load, but Oswald does not look like he is interested in fighting back.

https://s.yimg.com/fz/api/res/1.2/F....com/2013/11/o-lee-harvey-oswald-facebook.jpg
 
Holy thread resurrection Batman!

Two years go by and the thread just picks up where it left off. I love it. The 158 gr RNL, on the other hand...no love there. If you gave me some I'd shoot it, and if it was the only thing I had available for law enforcement or defense, then I would use it because it was all I had, but otherwise it is simply uninteresting in light of what else is out there for defensive, hunting or target purposes.

Sure, plenty of people have been killed with it but you can say the same of just about any handgun cartridge.
 
WOW!
What a GREAT thread!
I remember these arguments from the '70s.

I have only one thought, which may well be based on a faulty memory.

I thought I remember a defense of the RNL .38 Special that stated that during its hayday it had the best record of stopping the bad guys of any police round.

I'd like to know if anyone has evidence supporting or disproving that.

Just as there are more accidents involving, say, Toyotas, than there are with Lamborghinis, simply because there are more Toyotas on the road. The RNL was general issue with practically every PD so it makes sense that it was used more and perhaps stopped more BGs. It was the many failures involving repeated center-of-mass hits, however, that influenced cartridge development.

I read such a defense in a 1974 issue of the NYPD Spring 3100 magazine. It was written by a range officer/instructor from the standpoint of training the large number of officers for whom marksmanship was not a priority, and who could fire the .38 RNL more easily. Ease-of-use seemed to take priority over ballistic effectiveness.

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103
 
I don't know why....

I just don't like them. I prefer SWCs for general purpose because they make a nice hole in the target and have that flat nose just in case you want to kill something. For plinking who cares? I'd use square bullets for that.

I'm not sure if this works but cutting a good cross in the top of a RN is supposed to make a dum dum bullet that is a more effective killer. This may be true if the lead peels back.

PS These were called "cruciform expanding bullets" in the late 1800s as opposed to lead slugs with a hollow cavity. The bullet expands to the depth of the cuts in the nose.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top