Battle of Savo Island and the Kirishima

[LVSteve]

The Battle of Savo Island took place in 1942 and involved two US battleships with support and the Japanese battlecruiser Kirishima and her consorts. The USS Washington was able to get the drop on the Kirishima using radar as this was a night action. The washington estimated she scored about 8 hits with her main armament, but it seems information from Japanese survivors make this a gross underestimate. Short version, the Kirishima got pummeled. Worse, her outdated design (WWI) meant that she flooded on decks that went the full width of the ship and her captain made some bad decisions regarding counterflooding. Fascinating stuff.

http://www.navweaps.com/index_lundgren/Kirishima_Damage_Analysis.pdf

Another example of water going side-to-side where it should not took place just outside Zeebrugge harbour when the ferry Herald of Free Enterprise was lost. Nasty.

Edited to add:

There is some debate over the name of this engagement. Wikipedia states that it is knwon as the 4th Battle of Savo Island, the Naval Battle of Guadalcanal, the 2nd Naval Battle of Guadalcanal or even the Third Battle of the Solomon Sea in Japanese sources. Ya pays yer money and you takes yer choice. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_...canal#Other_actions.2C_November_13.E2.80.9314

 

[semperfi71]

Very interesting post and thanks.

I have read for many years of the actions on and around Guadalcanal and the subsequent Solomons Islands campaigns.

Initially the Japanese Navy taught the United States Navy night-time battle tactics. We learned quickly and turned the tables.

As well Guadalcanal was the only campaign in WWII where American troops (Marines) were shelled by enemy battleships, if I remember correctly. The guns were 14 inchers and the Marines said it was a living hell.

 

[k22fan]

Thank-you for the link.

While not specifically about the battleship engagement, Neptune's Inferno: the U.S. Navy at Guadalcanal by James Hornfischer is a good book on the topic. Although some of the Marines' finest work was done on Guadalcanal, IIRC about 4 times as many U.S. sailors died at sea fighting over who controlled Henderson Field.

 

[Texas Star]

I'm reading an article in an old, "Flight Journal" about 1st Lt. James Swett, a Marine pilot on Guadalcanal. He won the Medal of Honor fighting superior Japanese air units trying to bomb Allied ships anchored off of nearby Tulagi.

He led eight Wildcats against about 150-175 Jap planes! Some 100 were Zero fighters; the rest Val dive bombers.

But I have read of naval actions there, too.

 

[Calaveras Slim]

I'm reading an article in an old, "Flight Journal" about 1st Lt. James Swett, a Marine pilot on Guadalcanal. He won the Medal of Honor fighting superior Japanese air units trying to bomb Allied ships anchored off of nearby Tulagi.

He led eight Wildcats against about 150-175 Jap planes! Some 100 were Zero fighters; the rest Val dive bombers.

But I have read of naval actions there, too.

Good and informative post. Thanks.

Point, You don't "WIN" the MOH, you are awarded the MOH for heroism.

 

[Texas Star]

Good and informative post. Thanks.

Point, You don't "WIN" the MOH, you are awarded the MOH for heroism.

Point taken. I'm very tired.

 

[kimporter]

my late uncle was on Guadalcanal from aug 8 till nov 18 1942,he lived thru the navel shelling and was haunted by it till the day he died,every time a thunderstorm came up late at night when he was asleep he was transported back to that place and time,

 

[Dave_n]

If you think those bombardments were bad, try thinking about the German and their allied troops who were at Normandy. There were "big guns" from 14" to 16" on Battleships (WWI and WWII vintage) plus 15" on Monitors literally "on call" up to 15 miles inland. Dave_n

 

[therevjay]

Interesting. Although there have been reams written about the Navel air war in the Pacific you have to hunt to find anything about surface engagements.

 

[Will Carry]

There is a book called "Bloody Friday off Guadalcanal" about the night Admiral Callaghan got in to a point blank slug fest night battle with a Japanese task force sent to shell Henderson field. They wanted to land 10,000 infantry on the island and needed Henderson Field our of action while they landed. We lost the fight, Callaghan was killed, but the Japs were not able to knock out Henderson Field. If you look on Google Maps you can still see one of the Japanese transports beached on Guadal, west of Henerson Field. Of the 10,000 Japanese troops only few thousand made it to shore and many of them had no weapons. It was a turning point in the battle.

GPS -9.434129, 159.973826

 

[Mike7.62]

Thank-you for the link.

While not specifically about the battleship engagement, Neptune's Inferno: the U.S. Navy at Guadalcanal by James Hornfischer is a good book on the topic. Although some of the Marines' finest work was done on Guadalcanal, IIRC about 4 times as many U.S. sailors died at sea fighting over who controlled Henderson Field.

That's true. Hornfischer's book is a great read for those interested in the surface naval war in and around Guadalcanal.

 

[vigil617]

IIRC, this was the engagement in which the American battle line executed the classic "crossing the T" maneuver, thanks to the advantage of radar, allowing our ships to bring broadsides to bear on the approaching Japanese line, which was essentially in single file and not able to bring gunfire to bear except from their forwardmost batteries.

It must have been incredible from the American side, and absolute hell for the Japanese.

 

[Mike7.62]

IIRC, this was the engagement in which the American battle line executed the classic "crossing the T" maneuver, thanks to the advantage of radar, allowing our ships to bring broadsides to bear on the approaching Japanese line, which was essentially in single file and not able to bring gunfire to bear except from their forwardmost batteries.

It must have been incredible from the American side, and absolute hell for the Japanese.

From what I read in Hornfischer's book, it was hell for both sides.

BTW, it was Adm. Lee who was OIC during the Second Naval Battle of Guadalcanal, where radar was used to great effect and the "Kurishima" was sunk.

ADM Callaghan was killed in an earlier action called the Cruiser Night Action, and was in the "San Francisco" when he and his entire staff were killed.

The Japanese had a torpedo called the Long Lance which their destroyers used to wreak havoc on American surface combatants, which combined with their highly trained crews who were drilled in night gunnery and action allowed them to score significant victories in the entire Guadalcanal campaign.

Hornfischer brings to life the truly terrible scenes of modern combat where high speed steel meets human flesh. The results aren't pretty. I highly recommend this book to any interested in a detailed account of Guadalcanal.

 

[cmort666]

For a while, the IJN managed to stay on top with superior training (especially night training), VASTLY superior torpedoes, and good optics.

As U.S. naval strength in the Pacific ramped up, things turned VERY badly for the Japanese, due in no small part to our total superiority in radar, both qualitatively and quantitatively.

The Japanese had few radar sets, and the ones they did have were ineffective and unreliable. As I recall, the Yamato's radar was barely working at the time she was sunk.

The Japanese were often hammered without even knowing they were being engaged until the shells hit home.

Between our total superiority in radar and standoff weapons, the Japanese weren't circling the drain in '45, they were hurtling into it as if into a black hole. I believe it was a Navy B-25 (forget the Navy/Marine designation) that launched a "Bat" glide bomb at a Japanese destroyer at a range at which the Japanese couldn't even detect it (25 miles?). As I recall, the bomb blew the bow off and she sank with all hands.

Had it not been thrown away in futile "kamikaze" missions like that of the Yamato, that would have been the eventual fate of the Japanese Navy.

 

[Will Carry]

The Long Lance was one of the best torpedos of the war. It could go over 40,000 yards on slow speed or 22,000 yards at fast speed.

 

[cmort666]

The Japanese had a torpedo called the Long Lance which their destroyers used to wreak havoc on American surface combatants, which combined with their highly trained crews who were drilled in night gunnery and action allowed them to score significant victories in the entire Guadalcanal campaign.

Contrast this with the HIDEOUSLY awful pre-war American torpedoes. As I recall they were barely tested, and of those tests actually done, 1/3 failed.

A lot of Japanese sailors lived much longer than they would have due to the incompetence of Navy Ordnance officials. Those Japanese sailors killed a LOT of Americans.

 

[cmort666]

The Long Lance was one of the best torpedos of the war. It could go over 40,000 yards on slow speed or 22,000 yards at fast speed.

And:

1. It went where you pointed it.
2. It went at the depth to which you set it.
3. It went off when it hit the target.

...all things which you could NOT say of pre-war U.S. torpedoes.

 

[cmort666]

There is a book called "Bloody Friday off Guadalcanal" about the night Admiral Callaghan got in to a point blank slug fest night battle with a Japanese task force sent to shell Henderson field. They wanted to land 10,000 infantry on the island and needed Henderson Field our of action while they landed. We lost the fight, Callaghan was killed, but the Japs were not able to knock out Henderson Field. If you look on Google Maps you can still see one of the Japanese transports beached on Guadal, west of Henerson Field. Of the 10,000 Japanese troops only few thousand made it to shore and many of them had no weapons. It was a turning point in the battle.

That was the fate of a lot of Japanese soldiers all over the Pacific Theater.

The Battle of the Bismarck Sea was essentially the slaughter of a Japanese invasion force and its accompanying destroyer escort. At one point there were so many U.S. and Commonwealth aircraft attacking the convoy that they had to be organized into layers by altitude, so that they didn't interfere with or crash into each other. Very few of the Japanese troops survived, much less made it to their intended destination. It didn't help at all that the Japanese cargo doctrine was wildly inappropriate (aviation gasoline and bombs stored on deck), or that they had woefully inadequate air cover.

The Allied forces have subsequently been criticized for shooting and bombing Japanese soldiers in lifeboats and in the water. I consider it revenge for the Bataan Death March and a thousand other atrocities. They were armed soldiers who weren't trying to surrender. Of course I've never heard that we pulled any out of the water just to torture them either...

 

[M3Stuart]

WWII you say? (ears perk up)...ok, to properly respond, I'm going to have to go un-earth some boxes of books and find the ones related to WWII naval tactics...

On this topic, and please tell me if I'm hijacking your thread and I'll post this to a new one, I'll leave you all with this question:

How many Fletcher class destroyers went nose-to-nose with IJN battleships and survived? For extra credit: what were their names & numbers?

I always like the underdogs best...like a riveted, undergunned tank, if you know what I mean.

 

[cmort666]

I always like the underdogs best...like a riveted, undergunned tank, if you know what I mean.

To veer away from the naval topic, other than in numbers, the Stuarts weren't underdogs in the Philippines in '42. My last day on active duty in '84, I met a guy who'd been a National Guard tanker there. He said that until they ran out of main gun ammunition, they went through the Japanese tankers like Schumer through a goose. He also said that he'd wished that they'd had AP-HE instead of AP.