one eye joe
US Veteran
THE MORAL IS THAT SOMEONE CAN BE OLD, AND STILL NOT KNOW SQUAT ! ! ! MY COLT 1911s HAVE BEEN TROUBLE FREE, OUT OF BOX, FOR THE MOST PART. THAT'S THE ONLY BRAND THAT I SHOOT. ANYTHING ELSE IS A COPY…...
Because it's a 1911, not a Glock!
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THE MORAL IS THAT SOMEONE CAN BE OLD, AND STILL NOT KNOW SQUAT ! ! ! MY COLT 1911s HAVE BEEN TROUBLE FREE, OUT OF BOX, FOR THE MOST PART. THAT'S THE ONLY BRAND THAT I SHOOT. ANYTHING ELSE IS A COPY…...
This is exactly my point.You Seem To be an experienced shooter,yet you appear to be hearing this for the very first time.A lot of information regarding 1911 ,tolerances,Mil Spec up to competition grade and general break in periods can be researched to give you a better understanding of the topic.I also noticed you listed quite a few semi autos that have failed you.Most of the issues can be traced to either user error or magazine failure.Unless your buying several guns each month,your failure rate seems a bit high.
Arik
Member
No question about it. JMB was a genius. His inventions are still used in other guns. But it doesn't make it the end all be all. In fact if anything his invention suffered later. He made the 1911 a reliable, loose fitted, battle accurate handgun. When the patent expired manufacturers went all crazy with their own versions and ideas of tolerance and raw material quality.
-you cannot just replace a barrel today. More often than not it must be fitted. Back in the day the requirement was that you can take a part of any 1911 and put it in any other 1911 without fitting. Similar to today's polymer guns. Remington would fit Ithaca, which would fit Union Switch. ....All parts were of know quality. Today you can buy a WC or a Tisis/Taurus/Shooters Arms. Which do you think is made better? Has better quality parts?
-grip angles can be changed on many guns.
-certain things like safeties and sights are a personal choice. I need ambi and dislike adjustable sights.
-ergonomics are fine but so are the ones on a J frame or a Glock or a Sig.
wish the trigger guard was wider and the original grips were thicker. Overall I like the gun but a good one costs some serious $$$. When you buy a Glock you buy a Glock. All made the same. When you buy a 1911 they are not all the same. Quality can be all over the place and some if not all replacement parts have to be fitted. That is not my idea of a good thing
Arik
Member
This is over the course of at least 6 years.
-The Para Ord would not eject a live round by hand.
- Glock 23 would stove pipe every 2nd or 3rd round. The Glock 22 would not. Also gave it to random people at the range and all experienced the same problem.
-M&P 9 had consistent light primer strikes on American commercial ammo. The 357 Sig would fail to extract an empty case but would try to feed a new one. The extractor would jump the rim.
-Both Sig 226/220 wouldn't feed. Bullet would either get tipped up or jam into the ramp. While using the same mags my other P220 and P228, both also German, would run fine.
-hi power failed to feed and when it did it would not eject properly.
Not at all. I've heard the break in phrase many times. I just don't buy it. I think with today's technology this is a manufacturers way of saying we aren't sure if it will work right out of the box so hopefully everything will work itself out within the first 500 rounds
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REM 3200
US Veteran
REM 3200
US Veteran
I remember you making similar points before, but I think you might be misunderstanding some of the finer points:
The 1911 was originally designed to be loose fitting, but that was due to the military requirement that all parts, between all manufactures had to be completely interchangeable with no fitting required. given a box of 100 receivers, slides, barrels, etc of a mix of manufacturers you had to be able to create 100 working and reliable pistols. That isn't a requirement in today's commercial market. They are free to make them better. There's nothing inherent in the design that requires loose fitting parts to function.
The multitude of 1911 manufacturers is a blessing, not a curse. It gives you choice. Yes, it would be nice if they all stuck with the same design, but now you have external extractors (S&W, some Kimbers), Swartz safeties, series-80 safeties, etc. But the basic designs are still the same. I'll ignore the philistines who have done away with the barrel bushing.
Only glock makes glocks, so parts only have to fit one manufacturer. If you want the same interchangeability out of a 1911. Buy a Colt, then get your parts from Colt. Or S&W, or whoever. This isn't a deficiency in the design. If 'everyone' made glocks, the same issues would arise. This wouldn't make a previously good design bad.
Yes, building a match grade pistol requires fitted parts. A glock isn't match grade, so doesn't require the fitting. Glock parts only have to fit a glock, and are loose enough to fit most any glock. I buy a 1911 because I want better.
I've shot many 1000s of rounds through my 1911s, all of them match grade, and have never had to replace a barrel, link, bushing, or any other fitted part. They are also all 100% reliable, and would have no reservations about their defensive capabilities if I needed them for such.
REM 3200
US Veteran
A number of years ago this man said it best:
"Of course the 1911 is an outdated design.
It came from an era when weapons were designed to win fights, not to avoid product liability lawsuits. It came from an era where it was the norm to learn how your weapon operated and to practice that operation until it became second nature, not to design the piece to the lowest common denominator.
It came from an era in which our country tried to supply its fighting men with the best tools possible, unlike today, when our fighting men and women are issued hardware that was adopted because of international deal-making, or the fact that the factory is in some well-connected congressman's district.
Yes, beyond any shadow of a doubt, the 1911 IS an outdated design.... and that's exactly what I love about it."
~Rosco S. Benson
"Of course the 1911 is an outdated design.
It came from an era when weapons were designed to win fights, not to avoid product liability lawsuits. It came from an era where it was the norm to learn how your weapon operated and to practice that operation until it became second nature, not to design the piece to the lowest common denominator.
It came from an era in which our country tried to supply its fighting men with the best tools possible, unlike today, when our fighting men and women are issued hardware that was adopted because of international deal-making, or the fact that the factory is in some well-connected congressman's district.
Yes, beyond any shadow of a doubt, the 1911 IS an outdated design.... and that's exactly what I love about it."
~Rosco S. Benson
Watchdog
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I've been shooting for forty-eight years. I've never heard any of that garbage you attribute to "elders". Never heard anyone else say it, either. Sounds as if you've been hanging out with the wrong crowd.
What's a Norinco?
Watchdog
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I've never had a 1911 that needed a break in period. Other than that, I agree with you about listening to more experienced shooters regarding a whole lot of things.
Arik
Member
I don't hang out with any crowd. 99% of my shooting is done solo. Occasionally a friend tags along. When I'm at the range sometimes people come up and ask what I have. I'm more than happy o let them look and fire off a few rounds if they wish. Some poeple say thanks and move on, others hang around a little for some chit-chat. Sometimes they feel the need to bestow me with their nuggets of wisdom.I've been shooting for forty-eight years. I've never heard any of that garbage you attribute to "elders". Never heard anyone else say it, either. Sounds as if you've been hanging out with the wrong crowd.
What's a Norinco?
Norinco is a Chinese copy of a 1911. Imported back in the early 90s.
Really no different then breaking in a new clutch.You wouldn't view that as poor craftsmanship because the automatic doesn't need to.
Harkrader
Member
I think there is a difference, depending on what you want it to do.
I'm a pilot and never take a bird up without a thorough preflight inspection. We always used to say, only HALF joking, that the most dangerous airplane was the one that just came out of maintenance. Or the factory. That's why there are "shake down" and "functional test" flights.
I used to race cars and would never take a car on the track without assuring all the important parts worked, and having sorted it out on a test track. Do I take that Porsche on the inside of turn five, or the outside? Gotta know that stuff.
Some guns, new out of the box, are packed with grease. The barrels may be well oiled. I've seen some that appeared to have no lube or too little on the important moving parts.
If I intend to bet my life on it I'll shoot as much as I have to until I'm assured it is reliable. Newer guns, notably semi-autos, are far better out of the box today than 30 years ago, but I still want to know the sights are set for my eyes and my choice of ammo. I watched a shiny new Wilson choke on the first round, once. Same for a Sig 228. Why? Dunno, but each never missed a beat after that. Sure wouldn't want that to happen if the very first shot through it ever was intended to save my life.
One for use in competition? Well, I want to do the best I can. I've seen any number of guns fail during competition. A match can be as hard on a gun as combat. I will work out a gun as hard as I can to be sure it's ready to play. Again assuring the sights are on for my eyes and ammo.
Teaching? You're the student:
Scenario 1: Your teacher pulls the shiny new blaster out of its box, loads it and points it down range. Lots of satisfying "BANGS!" Hands it to you. "Pud." What would that do for confidence?
Scenario 2: Same prep, but this time it's your young child or grandchild who is the student. After XX number of shots the action locks up. If you don't have a spare, done for the day. Kind of a squelch on the next trip, I think.
Besides, and most importantly, IT'S FUN!
I'm a pilot and never take a bird up without a thorough preflight inspection. We always used to say, only HALF joking, that the most dangerous airplane was the one that just came out of maintenance. Or the factory. That's why there are "shake down" and "functional test" flights.
I used to race cars and would never take a car on the track without assuring all the important parts worked, and having sorted it out on a test track. Do I take that Porsche on the inside of turn five, or the outside? Gotta know that stuff.
Some guns, new out of the box, are packed with grease. The barrels may be well oiled. I've seen some that appeared to have no lube or too little on the important moving parts.
If I intend to bet my life on it I'll shoot as much as I have to until I'm assured it is reliable. Newer guns, notably semi-autos, are far better out of the box today than 30 years ago, but I still want to know the sights are set for my eyes and my choice of ammo. I watched a shiny new Wilson choke on the first round, once. Same for a Sig 228. Why? Dunno, but each never missed a beat after that. Sure wouldn't want that to happen if the very first shot through it ever was intended to save my life.
One for use in competition? Well, I want to do the best I can. I've seen any number of guns fail during competition. A match can be as hard on a gun as combat. I will work out a gun as hard as I can to be sure it's ready to play. Again assuring the sights are on for my eyes and ammo.
Teaching? You're the student:
Scenario 1: Your teacher pulls the shiny new blaster out of its box, loads it and points it down range. Lots of satisfying "BANGS!" Hands it to you. "Pud." What would that do for confidence?
Scenario 2: Same prep, but this time it's your young child or grandchild who is the student. After XX number of shots the action locks up. If you don't have a spare, done for the day. Kind of a squelch on the next trip, I think.
Besides, and most importantly, IT'S FUN!
Rick_A
Member
Nothing is infallible.
I've seen AK's and Glocks jam at the range, and those "don't jam."
My only 1911 needed an oversized firing pin stop when new. An easy few dollars to fix but it could have been fit inducing for someone unfamiliar with the guns, likely prompting an internet rant and bash session.
A CZ I have required a little over 250 rds to loosen up to where it would function correctly. Some cheap bulk ammo and an extended range session took care of that. It shoots incredibly well and it was well worth the effort.
Funny someone on a Smith&Wesson forum full of revolver aficionados making a case against the 1911.
I guess all I can say is that I resemble that a bit?
20150212_133937 by Slick_Rick77, on Flickr
There's many fresh folks into guns, shooting, and carrying and most want to put the least effort into it as possible.
Any problem, no matter how simple the fix is a trip back to the factory and an expectant free repair regardless of if the problem was user induced or not. That's the way folks are.
At least 80% of problems out there are owner software problems, in any case.
I've seen AK's and Glocks jam at the range, and those "don't jam."
My only 1911 needed an oversized firing pin stop when new. An easy few dollars to fix but it could have been fit inducing for someone unfamiliar with the guns, likely prompting an internet rant and bash session.
A CZ I have required a little over 250 rds to loosen up to where it would function correctly. Some cheap bulk ammo and an extended range session took care of that. It shoots incredibly well and it was well worth the effort.
I love these 1911 threads
Why would anyone choose a lower capacity heavier firearm except for nostalgic reasons? Regardless of reliability.
Ok collecting is a different matter but depending on a gun for EDC reliability, weight and size are very important factors to consider.
Funny someone on a Smith&Wesson forum full of revolver aficionados making a case against the 1911.
I guess all I can say is that I resemble that a bit?
20150212_133937 by Slick_Rick77, on FlickrThere's many fresh folks into guns, shooting, and carrying and most want to put the least effort into it as possible.
Any problem, no matter how simple the fix is a trip back to the factory and an expectant free repair regardless of if the problem was user induced or not. That's the way folks are.
At least 80% of problems out there are owner software problems, in any case.
BigBill
Absent Comrade
Here we go a 1911 bashing thread or is it.
My facts.
My early 80's new colt commander 1911a1 would constantly jam. Sold it.
My series 70 new colt government 1911a1 both sights very very loose sold it. Regretted selling it.
My new series 90/1990 Springfield armory 1911a1 jammed one round per 8rd mag constantly one stove pipe. I put it in the safe since 1990. I refused to sell it. It's a better quality 1911 with a tighter frame rail fit plus it's so Purdy in black park, with the taller sights from the factory..
I never gave up on owning a fully functioning 1911. I purchased a well ridden norinco 1911. The test fire went flawless. But she was so worn the barrel bushing was loose in the slide. I purchased every DVD on how to build, how to tune, how to tweeking your 1911. I purchased the tools I needed. I wanted to do a rebuild on my norinco. I chose to use all the cheapest low cost parts just to see how accurate it could be. I purchased a surplus military USGI $59 barrel, spg. A national match barrel bushing $15 cdnn. A full length guide rod kit $9 spg. I did all the fitting myself. At 25 yds she shoots clusters and cloverleafs. Even with the original fit on the frame rails it's this accurate. Also shooting Russian wolf 45acp ball ammo.
Then I remembered my new 1990 SA 1911a1 growing roots in the safe over two decades I forgot about it. In 5 minutes I found what was wrong with it. This 1911 didn't have a box of ammo through it yet. The extractor was unsprung. It needed to be returned. Since I had the tools and fixture from brownells for doing this plus I made the changes it said to make on the extractor. Like flaring the lower part of the extractor so the case rim feeds better into it. My brand new SA 1911 cycles flawlessly now
Now my question was why did the extractor lose its intention?
Me/i personally made a cardinal mistake with a pistol. Instead of clambering the first round from the mag I put the first round in the chamber then slam the slide shut. "I"/ "me" deturned the extractor.
Now I load every first round in every pistol from the mag. I was not ever informed on how to load the first round in the 1911. I never asked anyone.
Now after having my 1911's running flawlessly I know now what all the 1911 hype is all about. There awesome pistols. When there operating correctly the dependability and reliability is there. I'm glad I never gave up on owning the 1911's.
Fact,
My norinco since I did all the work on it passed the 500rd ccw test.
My new auto-Ordnance army ww2 copy passed the 500rd test. It's been functioning flawlessly right out of the box new.
Like I said when there built right there flawless.
I do not believe in break in time. If it needs break in time the mim parts aren't machined correctly. If there hand fitted the work isn't done correctly. Break in time that's BS.
It should function flawlessly right out of the box. It should.....
My facts.
My early 80's new colt commander 1911a1 would constantly jam. Sold it.
My series 70 new colt government 1911a1 both sights very very loose sold it. Regretted selling it.
My new series 90/1990 Springfield armory 1911a1 jammed one round per 8rd mag constantly one stove pipe. I put it in the safe since 1990. I refused to sell it. It's a better quality 1911 with a tighter frame rail fit plus it's so Purdy in black park, with the taller sights from the factory..
I never gave up on owning a fully functioning 1911. I purchased a well ridden norinco 1911. The test fire went flawless. But she was so worn the barrel bushing was loose in the slide. I purchased every DVD on how to build, how to tune, how to tweeking your 1911. I purchased the tools I needed. I wanted to do a rebuild on my norinco. I chose to use all the cheapest low cost parts just to see how accurate it could be. I purchased a surplus military USGI $59 barrel, spg. A national match barrel bushing $15 cdnn. A full length guide rod kit $9 spg. I did all the fitting myself. At 25 yds she shoots clusters and cloverleafs. Even with the original fit on the frame rails it's this accurate. Also shooting Russian wolf 45acp ball ammo.
Then I remembered my new 1990 SA 1911a1 growing roots in the safe over two decades I forgot about it. In 5 minutes I found what was wrong with it. This 1911 didn't have a box of ammo through it yet. The extractor was unsprung. It needed to be returned. Since I had the tools and fixture from brownells for doing this plus I made the changes it said to make on the extractor. Like flaring the lower part of the extractor so the case rim feeds better into it. My brand new SA 1911 cycles flawlessly now
Now my question was why did the extractor lose its intention?
Me/i personally made a cardinal mistake with a pistol. Instead of clambering the first round from the mag I put the first round in the chamber then slam the slide shut. "I"/ "me" deturned the extractor.
Now I load every first round in every pistol from the mag. I was not ever informed on how to load the first round in the 1911. I never asked anyone.
Now after having my 1911's running flawlessly I know now what all the 1911 hype is all about. There awesome pistols. When there operating correctly the dependability and reliability is there. I'm glad I never gave up on owning the 1911's.
Fact,
My norinco since I did all the work on it passed the 500rd ccw test.
My new auto-Ordnance army ww2 copy passed the 500rd test. It's been functioning flawlessly right out of the box new.
Like I said when there built right there flawless.
I do not believe in break in time. If it needs break in time the mim parts aren't machined correctly. If there hand fitted the work isn't done correctly. Break in time that's BS.
It should function flawlessly right out of the box. It should.....
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You are the first person I've ever heard of that claims to have bought that many lemon guns.
I've had two that I couldn't get to run in all the years I've been buying and trading - and I buy guns with "problems!"
Arik
Member
What can I tell you. I buy used. Sometimes you win sometimes you loose. 7 guns in 10 or so years doesn't seem to bad.Ματθιας;138453608 said:
How many do you buy a year? Not trying to have a measuring contest but I go through quite a lot. I tried to cut back this year and only bought 4 and have one on layaway. I think last year I went through 20 or so. Maybe a little less. If I don't like them or find something better I'll trade for something else.
I don't know if they are lemon guns. Lemon implies that the problem can't be fixed. I just move on if there is a problem.
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5 colts,one Kimber and one springer and they've all run fine.
BigBill
Absent Comrade
The problems can be fixed. It's finding the cause, it can be a simple fix.
The first thing I do on a 1911 that's new to me is polish the feed ramp. I remove the finish on the feed ramp and polish it and remove the machining marks if there is any. I give it a USGI cleaning then I then lube everything with moly. I function it by hand to burnish the moly into the pores of the metal. Wipe off the excess moly and she's ready to test fire.
Do I trust my 1911's?? I'd walk into hell with anyone of them.
The first thing I do on a 1911 that's new to me is polish the feed ramp. I remove the finish on the feed ramp and polish it and remove the machining marks if there is any. I give it a USGI cleaning then I then lube everything with moly. I function it by hand to burnish the moly into the pores of the metal. Wipe off the excess moly and she's ready to test fire.
Do I trust my 1911's?? I'd walk into hell with anyone of them.
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