Bekeart models and .22/32 HFT's

[Hondo44]

Those are both Paine front sights. I would double check with Roy and see about getting a corrected letter if required.

My database is building slowly however, the last Paine front sight is listed in the 207,XXX range around 1914/1915 and the first Patridge is listed for gun 441,727 in September of 1926.

I also show large knob with the same gun, 441,727, and the first medium knob with 533,048 in January 1940.

As more guns are added, the numbers and dates should be more defined.

James,

In my database I have #225222 shipped 8/9/15 with latest known Paine sight, Targets w/ gold medallions.

And much lower #495640 - shipped 1/26/29, with medium knob, from this thread:http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-hand-ejectors-1896-1961/388266-bekeart-models-22-32-hfts.html post #12. Or perhaps you meant the LAST medium knob with 533,048 in January 1940.

If so, I have in my database, # 534,506 highest number known w/medium knob was shipped in June of 1940.

 

[jag312]

I don't know who these two revolvers were shipped to. I don't have letters yet, but here are two more for your list. They were acquired in the San Francisco Bay Area.

138555 / 357
138810 / 539

 

[JSR III]

Actually, I would place 220,397 in early 1915, perhaps February or March.

361,069 would be 1920 or 1921 and should have heat treated cylinders. I guess that means that you can shoot Plus P .22 long rifle cartridges from it.

 

[JSR III]

Jim, I think that at the time, 533,048 was the lowest number that I had showing the medium knob. That has since changed as 495,640 from 1/26/1929, is the lowest number recorded with a medium knob and I own 488,263 from 8/8/1928 that has the highest serial number in my database with the large knob. So I think that we can safely assume that the knob change occured between August 1928 and January 1929.

The highest numbered Paine front sight is 361,069 and the lowest numbered Patridge front sight is 364,613.

The latest gun in my database is 534,506 shipped in June 1940.

Again, these are only based on observations from my database and many of these guns are observed online with no guarantee whether they shipped in said configuration.

I actually reported to the authors of the SCSW that I owned a gun with serial number 384,570 with recessed chambers that predated the reported number of 525,600. I unfortunately failed to realize at the time that the * before the serial number probably indicated a return to the factory for that modification and not a refinish.

The hardest part about this collecting addiction is not knowing what you don't know.

 

[Dosgatos]

22/32 HFT

Mine is #408864 from June 1925. Patridge front sight, large ejector knob, non-recessed cylinder, small logo on left side, "Made In USA" on right side. It had a set of butchered extension grips when I bought it, but found a set on eBay. The bore is rough, but it shoots just fine.

 

[LLOYD17]

458xxx
Large knob, non-recessed, non-medallion grips

 

[bwdilli]

I have 501322. Purchased it earlier this year and have yet to get it lettered. I would appreciate any information you might be able to provide on it.

 

[Hondo44]

I have 501322. Purchased it earlier this year and have yet to get it lettered. I would appreciate any information you might be able to provide on it.

That's a beauty!

From the Serial # and features of your gun, my database indicates:

Since the medium 'barrel' knob on yours replaced the large 'mushroom' knob by change order dated 1/22/27, and Medallions were reinstated in wood stocks by change order dated 2/11/1929, therefore yours was produced after those two dates, likely late in 1929. And most likely shipped much later in 1930 or 31 because of the stock market crash of 1929 which really slowed sales and shipping of firearms.

If your target stocks are original to the gun, the serial # may still show penciled on the inside of the right grip with very good light and magnifying glass.

Hope that helps,

 

[JSR III]

Jim, why would you think that 501,322 with non medallion stocks would have to ship after the change order date for reinstating medallions on 2/11/1929? I understand your logic about the knob change from large to medium placing the gun after 1/22/1927, but am not understanding the medallion logic.

Granted, it could be later than 2/11/1929 as it took a while for medallions to reappear, but couldn't it also be from before the change order in say 1928????

Unless you have some serial numbers that narrow it further, I am missing something.

 

[Göring's S&W]

All,

Does anyone have a post war shipped 22/32 target that was made before the improved I frame came out in 1953? I imagine that variation would be a tad scarce. I have a 1946 all model circular which lists the "22 / 32 target" as an available model. I scanned the page below. It appears to have the pre war sight variety, as any post war I frame that is pre improved I frame should. The circular is dated Oct. 3 1946. It mentions the then new Masterpiece line on another page.

Anyone know how many were made or shipped in the post war years prior to the improved I frame?

 

[Hondo44]

Jim, why would you think that 501,322 with non medallion stocks would have to ship after the change order date for reinstating medallions on 2/11/1929? I understand your logic about the knob change from large to medium placing the gun after 1/22/1927, but am not understanding the medallion logic.

Granted, it could be later than 2/11/1929 as it took a while for medallions to reappear, but couldn't it also be from before the change order in say 1928????

Unless you have some serial numbers that narrow it further, I am missing something.

James,

You're absolutely correct. It may well have shipped before 1929. I could have clarified that better. I don't have a lot of data points in my database for that period but the trend appears to indicate later shipment:
497XXX 1929
525,6XX 1933
525,730 shipped in December of 1933
533,048 January 1940.

And the implementation of changes were always delayed while old inventory was exhausted, usually by several months. Also, we know from other models that shipping really slowed down during this period.

So just my educated estimate and could be off.

 

[Hondo44]

All,

Does anyone have a post war shipped 22/32 target that was made before the improved I frame came out in 1953? I imagine that variation would be a tad scarce. I have a 1946 all model circular which lists the "22 / 32 target" as an available model. I scanned the page below. It appears to have the pre war sight variety, as post war I frame that is pre improved I frame should. The circular is dated Oct. 3 1946.
Anyone know how many were made or shipped in the post war years prior to the improved I frame?

Hi Jim,

They are indeed rare as this exchange indicates:
"Roy, I was looking thru my copy of the 1952 Catalog, and there is a listing for a .22/32 Target Model along side with the .22/32 Kit Gun. This would be post-war Pre 1953 Model. It is/was built on the I Frame with adjustable sights and a six inch barrel. The SCSW listing for this model states that while collectors have said they exist, none have been seen by the authors. Are you aware of any having been sold-shipped in 1952? I am assuming (I know, that's dangerous) that it wouldn't have been in the catalog if it wasn't in production. The catalog doesn't mention if it was special order only. Thanks for your time, Lee Hooks."

In response to that question Roy wrote:
"Lee, I have seen one [22/32 Target] sold. I would have to go back to the manufacturing records and see what they show. However, with our meeting coming up and still have my talk to write, I will not get much chance to look up anything. Roy" on 06-12-2013


As is the case with the post war 22/32 Kit Guns, there were only 22/32 Target Transitional models; neither were built on the Improved I frame which made its appearance in 1952 in .32 and .38 S&W only. The 22/32 Target became the New I Frame Model of 1953 as the pre model 35.

 

[PALADIN85020]

A real veteran .22/32

I did send you a PM on this one, but I thought it might be good to send detailed pictures, and what Roy said in the factory letter.

First, this gun has obviously seen some use. It has a bead front sight that may have been altered. The rear sight is one I've never seen before, and I'm pretty sure it was a period aftermarket substitution for the factory sight. Interestingly, it has no elevation adjustment. The two knobs only control windage. When I got it, there was a slim wooden wedge underneath the back of the sight, I assume to give some measure of elevation adjustment. Here is a quote from Roy Jinks on the gun:

The revolver you inquired about in your letter of recent date is a .22/32 Bekeart Model. This model was introduced to in the Spring of 1911 at the request of Mr. Phil Bekeart, a large San Francisco gun dealer. ...We have researched your Smith & Wesson .22/32 Heavy Frame Target, caliber .22 Long Rifle, revolver in company records which indicate that your handgun, with serial number 207977, was shipped from our factory on March 19, 1917 and delivered to M.W. Robinson, New York City, NY, Smith & Wesson's oldest distributor. The records indicate that this firearm was shipped with a 6 inch barrel, blue finish, and checkered walnut extension target grips.

I've removed the stocks, and I cannot discern any trace of a serial number stamped, inked or penciled in the inner surfaces.

Here are some detailed pictures of the gun and its unusual rear sight. Not a pretty gun, but sure has "character."

Hope you'll find this of interest.

John

 

[JSR III]

John, are you certain of the year that your gun shipped? Roy had emailed me about the Robinson 490 and stated that all five shipments went out in the first 3 months of 1914.

Also, do you have any photos of that front sight close up from the side? It appears that it may be a Paine sight with the front and rear edges rounded and the bead shortened. It is possible that the shooter was having a problem with the windage adjustments for this gun or his eyes and thus added the non factory adjustable rear sight. This might also explain the need to shorten the front sight bead because viewed from an extreme left or right rear angle a longer bead might have appeared too wide when trying to center it on a target. (Merely supposition on my part)

It is also interesting to note that your S&W logo is on the right side and all six of my .22/32's have the logo on the left except the one with no logo. My lowest SN being in the 138,XXX range and the highest being in the 488,XXX range. The only other HFT that I have seen with a left logo was also written about here on the forum and was within the Robinson 490. It did however, have a replaced barrel and extractor rod so was not completely original.

One last question, do your stocks have an assembly sequence number on the left stock panel? It is also understood that the Robinson 490 all fell into the third 1000 produced and should bear stock sequence numbers in a range of 2,000 to 3,000.

The highest one I have recorded is 207,945 with stock number 2398

 

[bwdilli]

That's a beauty!

If your target stocks are original to the gun, the serial # may still show penciled on the inside of the right grip with very good light and magnifying glass.

Hope that helps,

Yes, the stocks are original.

 

[Hondo44]

John, are you certain of the year that your gun shipped? Roy had emailed me about the Robinson 490 and stated that all five shipments went out in the first 3 months of 1914.

Also, do you have any photos of that front sight close up from the side? It appears that it may be a Paine sight with the front and rear edges rounded and the bead shortened. It is possible that the shooter was having a problem with the windage adjustments for this gun or his eyes and thus added the non factory adjustable rear sight. This might also explain the need to shorten the front sight bead because viewed from an extreme left or right rear angle a longer bead might have appeared too wide when trying to center it on a target. (Merely supposition on my part)

It is also interesting to note that your S&W logo is on the right side and all six of my .22/32's have the logo on the left except the one with no logo. My lowest SN being in the 138,XXX range and the highest being in the 488,XXX range. The only other HFT that I have seen with a left logo was also written about here on the forum and was within the Robinson 490. It did however, have a replaced barrel and extractor rod so was not completely original.

One last question, do your stocks have an assembly sequence number on the left stock panel? It is also understood that the Robinson 490 all fell into the third 1000 produced and should bear stock sequence numbers in a range of 2,000 to 3,000.

The highest one I have recorded is 207,945 with stock number 2398

I have 208403 w/2398 grip #; my mistake???

 

[raljr1]

Here is mine, purchased about 6 months ago. Significant blue wear on the last 2" of the barrel. Numbers match. SN492381

I wish someone would teach me how to post pics inside the posting.

 

[PALADIN85020]

John, are you certain of the year that your gun shipped? Roy had emailed me about the Robinson 490 and stated that all five shipments went out in the first 3 months of 1914.

Also, do you have any photos of that front sight close up from the side? It appears that it may be a Paine sight with the front and rear edges rounded and the bead shortened. It is possible that the shooter was having a problem with the windage adjustments for this gun or his eyes and thus added the non factory adjustable rear sight. This might also explain the need to shorten the front sight bead because viewed from an extreme left or right rear angle a longer bead might have appeared too wide when trying to center it on a target. (Merely supposition on my part)

It is also interesting to note that your S&W logo is on the right side and all six of my .22/32's have the logo on the left except the one with no logo. My lowest SN being in the 138,XXX range and the highest being in the 488,XXX range. The only other HFT that I have seen with a left logo was also written about here on the forum and was within the Robinson 490. It did however, have a replaced barrel and extractor rod so was not completely original.

One last question, do your stocks have an assembly sequence number on the left stock panel? It is also understood that the Robinson 490 all fell into the third 1000 produced and should bear stock sequence numbers in a range of 2,000 to 3,000.

The highest one I have recorded is 207,945 with stock number 2398

Jim,

Here are photos of the inside of the stocks and of the front sight, which I believe probably is a modification of the Paine sight. As you can see, the stocks have no internal numbers whatsoever.

As to the date of shipment, I have to defer to Roy on that. He's got the records, and I know he takes pains to be accurate. Both my accurate reading of the serial number from the gun and Roy's quote of the same number back to me match. My guess is that Robinson received other shipments of this type in 1917, not just 1914 - also, you know that S&W sometimes shipped guns way out of serial number sequence. You might re-check with Roy on that serial number and date if you have further concern.

As for the placement of the logo - it is what it is. You will have to draw your own conclusions.

Hope this helps.

John

 

[Hondo44]

Jim,

Here are photos of the inside of the stocks and of the front sight, which I believe probably is a modification of the Paine sight. As you can see, the stocks have no internal numbers whatsoever.
John

John,
I can see the s/n pencil lead "sheen"remnants on the back side of the right stock, right down the middle of the top half, the usual place. Sometimes properly lighted, good photos like yours enhance what is not seeable otherwise. There was an old thread about this phenomenon.

Having the stock in hand with proper light and magnification, I believe it could be verified as the serial number. I've read several like this when it was said to be un-numbered, albeit 100 years old in your case! The numbers are pretty consistently oriented, and it helps to know that the numbers are right side up when the stock is oriented on its backstrap side. I can't read it as well from a photo, but knowing your serial #, the 207 of your s/n 207977 appears.

 

[hardscrabble]

I don't have good image software anymore, but I was able to tease this out with what I do have. I see "20797" for sure and probably the last "7" as well. (The numbers are right side up, between the screw holes, now tinted blue.)