Beretta M-92: Your Opinion?

[sigp220.45]

I was issued one about a year before I got out. I loved the M9 - for me it was replacing the mighty Model 15. I loved that wheelgun, but with only six rounds of horribly underpowered PGU-14 ball on tap, that mag full of NATO ball looked pretty good.

Mine was accurate and unfailingly reliable. I've owned a couple 92Fs since then, and they were the same.

 

[kraigwy]

I like several of the old timers faught the acceptence of the Beretta replaing the 1911a1. I was running the Marksmanship Unit for the Alaska National Guard when they came out. I was responsible for training the soldiers with the Beretta but I refused to even shoot one. (Made my guys handle it).

When we first got them the reports came out about the slides and I pulled them until the replacements were available. Afterwards I've heard no problems from the M-9s.

Fast forward several years. Not long ago I was offered a job training in EOD and Weapons in the middle east (fell through because of COPD). I would have had to carry and qualify with the Beretta and my wife insisted I get one to work with.

I did, I got two boxes of American Eagle FMJs with the gun, shot them up and then loaded cast bullets. I was highly impressed and still am. It's accurate and reliable. It has become my go to gun for USPSA and Steel Matches.

I already have shot several thousand rounds through my 92FS and the only thing I can say is that because I cut my nose off to spite my face I missed out on years of pleasure of shooting a fine firearm.

Granted, when I thought I was going to be deployed I bought a half dozzen of the best mags I could fine. They work flawlessly.

 

[M14sRock]

Here is my latest one, being stainless, it will be a keeper.

Loving the "box o' guns"!

 

[nawilson]

I don't doubt that my concerns related to the DA system are training related. But, the target audience is 18 and 19 year olds that may have little to no experience with handguns. We spend a lot of time carrying and shooting the M4/M16, but not so much for the M9. So, simplier is better. We have to direct training for the lowest common denominator. So, the thing to remember is that what is best for a dedicated practioner may not be best for the military.

My magazines were... issue. I don't know the maker because the came in a paper bag with the NSN on them. A FOB is a Forward Operating Base. Sorry, I should have explained that... lol, NSN is a National Stock Number. The gov assigns a number to everything, and the NSN is like a UPC code. Every time you enter a FOB, you are supposed to clear your weapons. I suppose daily compressing and decompressing the spring wore it out. My issue was that it only took about two months to do so. The simple fix was to disassemble the magazine and strech the spring. I did get the unpleasant experience of clearing my pistol after a patrol only to find it already had an empty chamber... I pushed the top round out of the mag and the next didn't pop up. Started press checking religiously after that.

 

[ColbyBruce]

M14sRock, the box started out pretty full. The Beretta and a Taurus #65 remain. About one month ago, it looked like this.

Back in February, it included these:

I had a bit of help, my brother took a Garand and a USGI arsenal rebuilt 1911. A neighbor took a Ruger Mini 14 even though I tried to talk him into buying a real rifle. A new friend took a few of the S&W's.

 

[Spike12]

I've talked to 3 guys who just came back from 'over there' and none of them had any good to say about the M9 AND ITS 9MM caliber. One told of fighting with a M2, see a bad guy coming up on right. He used his M9 and gave him two in the chest. Went back to the M2. Rechecked the bad guy and he was still coming. (sounds like a familiar story where .38 didn't work on the natives?).

One said there were two kinds of people: those who had a 45 and those who wanted one.

So I guess as a gun it's OK, but as a weapon - no so good.
Remember: I'm just the messenger...

 

[Cyrano]

I wonder if anyone has really shot one of those 'clapped out' 45s at a target.

At one time I had a brigade level pistol team. One day the brigade staff came out to the range for annual qualification. They brought their rack 45s with them. They wanted to shoot our match grade 45s; as they were colonels and I was a lieutenant, they shot our pistols. During lunch, I got our pistol team together and we shot the qualification course with the rack grade 45s. All of us MAXED THE COURSE, except one shooter; on examining his pistol, the rear sight was moved to the left somewhat, and there was a dent on the right of the sight leaf where it had been dropped on the floor. Those old, weary, 45s were plenty accurate for combat conditions, it was the shooter that made the difference in combat effectiveness.

edited to add: Any pistol is difficult for a novice to master, and the 45 is more difficult than most. The services can't devote the time, ammo, range faciltiies, etc, to building combat effectiveness with a pistol, it's just too expensive.

 

[Maximumbob54]

9mm FMJ sucks. As a defensive ammo just about any FMJ load sucks. If you go buy a 9mm for a CCW, home defense, whatever and you stoke it with 9mm FMJ ammo then I'm not sure what to say. You start buying 9mm modern day quality hollow point bullet ammo and you are talking about a whole different animal. It was already mentioned that the 9mm kind of stinks just like the .38 special LRN bullets sucked. But a modern .38 special revolver stoked with modern .38 special hollow point ammo is widely accepted as a very adequate defensive gun. So factor in good ammo with a gun design that is known for long term reliability and acceptable combat accuracy. No, I didn't say bullseye competition accuracy. I didn't get along well with the grip design and found it hard to shoot very well. So I went and bought one and practiced on my own time until even a supply puke like myself could score Sharpshooter to the USN standard. I was only points away from expert, but hey, hand grenades and horse shoes, right? I guess I hated the old chunky out dated design so much I kept it around full of Golden Sabers...

And the bit about shooting reloads - I cast 125 grain lead conical bullets that I tumble lube. They are laser beam accurate if I do my part.

That's them in the top left:

She just chews through them and never jams.

 

[Rule3]

magazines are nowhere nearly as good as genuine Beretta and Meg-Gar ones.

, IF they were by Beretta or Meg-Gar, which he insisted on using. And he never saw a problem with the M-9 that wasn't due to bad magazines.

They are correctly named Mec-Gar magazines

Mec-Gar - World's Finest Firearm Magazines

 

[LouisianaJoe]

I bought a 92fs Centurion after the ban was passed but before the dealer ran out of the ones with the 15 round mags. I put adjustable sights on it and I almost never fire it DA. I have a fairly large hand so it fits me just fine. For me this is a target pistol. If I want to carry a 9mm, I take my Kahr CW9. If I want to protect myself, I pick up my M&P .45 ACP or my HK USP .45 ACP or an AK.

 

[wheelgun28]

I have a civilian M9, mine has the factory laser grips. Ive have it about two years and put around 200 round through it. Its an OK gun for all the reason other have stated, its big, dont love the two dot sight, or the sights etc.

It sort of finds itself in an odd spot with me, its not really a "target" gun, its not really a carry piece. It was the first or second 9mm I owned a M39 is the other. I dont know what I bought first, not that that matters. I am not a 9mm lover but it has its place.

I guess when I bought this I had cash burning a hole in my pocket, I thought the M9 was going to be discontinued in favor of the M9 A1, (thats what I really wanted), the A1s were hard to find. This one was dealer stock that was sitting because of the laser grip and cost of it. I got a deal on it. I was going to put standard grips on it but....

As for mags, the M9A1 is supposed to have redesigned mags that are teflon (?) coated and supposed to be sand proof?

 

[Texas Star]

They are correctly named Mec-Gar magazines

Mec-Gar - World's Finest Firearm Magazines

AAArgh! Sorry: typo! I have a Mec-Gar magazine, in fact.

BTW, someone mentioned someone using an M-2 and not stopping someone with either it or a 9mm. I guess this M-2 was the .30 carbine? I've heard that they aren't great stoppers. Just surprised to find them in use in Iraq.

I qualified with the carbine until the USAF got enough M-16's, and I can tell you in all candor that I could fire a .38 revolver from the sitting, two-handed position at 25 yards and get better groups than I sometimes had with the carbine! I'm guessing that the carbines were worn or the ammo had been badly stored.

Everyone knocks 9mm FMJ and I sure won't use it by choice, unless penetration is the goal. But men with considerable experience in killing people with 9mm's in Rhodesia and in Iraq told me that their opponents went down if hit well with FMJ. One of these men was a senior police official in charge of counter-terrorist operations, and he told me that he encountered very few after action reports critical of 9mm stopping power. He was not only a .45 man, himself, but had access to lots of field data. I don't doubt that occasional failures happen, but think they may be exaggerated.

As for SEALS using NATO or proof loads, I understand that some lots of NATO ammo were loaded with SMG's in mind and were in fact excessive in pressure by SAAMI standards. Some of this was loaded by Radway Green arsenal in the UK. I don't know who else used hot loads. This ammo doesn't necessarily give high velocity in pistols, as the powder needs more barrel length to burn well. But it does stress the guns more than SAAMI-spec stuff. The UK ammo was notorious for breaking slides on Browning M-35's. Some of that was surely due to some units like the SAS firing them a LOT, though.

As nearly as I can tell after a lot of reading and talking to people who should know, the Beretta M-92FS will stand up pretty well, if one takes care not to fire it a huge amount in a short time and keeps recoil springs changed about every 3,000 rounds and changes locking blocks maybe every 10,000 rounds, for the new blocks. But if one wants a durable 9mm, the CZ-75 and the discontinued Star M-30 seem to have the best reps, other than maybe the Glock. But one competition shooter claimed on the Beretta board that he has M-92's that have lasted over 100,000 rounds! Didn't say how often he changed springs. Those weren't the beefed-up Brigadier, either.

 

[M14sRock]

Boxes AND baking pans full o' guns? You rock.

M14sRock, the box started out pretty full. The Beretta and a Taurus #65 remain. About one month ago, it looked like this.

Back in February, it included these:

I had a bit of help, my brother took a Garand and a USGI arsenal rebuilt 1911. A neighbor took a Ruger Mini 14 even though I tried to talk him into buying a real rifle. A new friend took a few of the S&W's.

 

[cmort666]

1. Grip too big for my hand
2. Trigger reach too long
3. Very large for the caliber

When I want to carry a 9x19mm handgun, I'll stick with my Glock 19 and Browning Hi Power.

 

[Rule 303]

My son has a couple of 92Fs. He's a very good shot with them and likes them. Me, I never cared for the gun. I've always liked Sigs, Browning HPs and Glocks for a 9mm gun.

I see them as ok for a belt gun, but not for CCW.

Rule 303

 

[daveh75]

I always love this topic....

1) Is the 92FS a good gun...yes
2) 9mm FMJ is anemic....sure compared to .50 cal, and if anyone wants to take me up on it: stand at 5,7,15, 25yds and let me shoot you with my 92FS or M9 and see how anemic it is....SHOT PLACEMENT SHOT PLACEMENT SHOT PLACEMENT!!!! BTW when JHP or EJHP fail to expand they are ball or FMJ...and if you don't think FMJ works ask the 600,000 or so personnel who were killed in the American Civil War....or those that have died in any war since the invention of firearms...oh and the shooter at Ft. Hood was taken down with FMJ...
3) I heard about this one guy one time at band camp...ok, first off no one was killed when the M9/92FS cracked up, a certain group of Naval Special Warfare personnel were doing unauthorized testing with unapproved handloads...you can either file a FOIA request and get the report from DoD or talk with the guys out at Accoceck at the Beretta Factory, they are always willing to provide information since every internet bandit there is wants think he is an expert without providing any real proof....
4) EVERY UNINTENTIONAL DISCHARGE I witnessed or investigated or read the AAR on in both IRAQ and AFGHANISTAN came down to one factor: THE OPERATOR DID NOT FOLLOW CLEARING PROCEDURES...now I don't agree with pulling the trigger after I HAVE ENSURED my weapon is clear (the #1 step is to drop the magazine) but that is what DA says and as long as you get a paycheck from Uncle Sugar you will do was told....
5) The sights aren't ajustable...well the rear sight is drift adjustable for windage (they weren't on earlier models that are still in service)...armorers have to ensure they don't get knocked around when they go in the arms room...and well if you can't figure out how to function a weapon with that type of sights don't draw the weapon as a "back-up" or change your MOS so you don't get one issued.....

The 92 and 96 series are what they are...full size service weapons. The biggest issue that DA has had with them, since I can only assume what other Branches face, is maintenance. These weapons are issued in bulk and stored the same way along with the magazines. So if the operator doesn't take care of it then you get what you put into it. As far as magazines failing, DA bought aftermarket magazines that were the lowest bidder...caused a lot of problems; however, the company got so many complaints from service members that they made changes and they are better now. I have carried either the M9 (92FS) or the M11(SigSauer P228) for almost 18 years, both in my opinion are fine weapons as long as the person carrying it knows what he/she is doing. People will always complain about the tool instead of their own failure. My soldiers on SRT (Special Response Team-Military Police SWAT) and those that were with me in Iraq could make head shots during hostage situations, double tap failure drills, etc...all with this supposedly inferior weapon. It all comes down to training...you either work with what you have or go somewhere else. Is it a CCW weapon, depends, I carry one on the job everyday and sometimes as my CCW (personal owned for off-duty). Depending on the situation while I am off duty I will carry a Smith, or Sig.....Just my experience/opinion.

 

[rags]

I always love this topic....

1) Is the 92FS a good gun...yes
2) 9mm FMJ is anemic....sure compared to .50 cal, and if anyone wants to take me up on it: stand at 5,7,15, 25yds and let me shoot you with my 92FS or M9 and see how anemic it is....SHOT PLACEMENT SHOT PLACEMENT SHOT PLACEMENT!!!! BTW when JHP or EJHP fail to expand they are ball or FMJ...and if you don't think FMJ works ask the 600,000 or so personnel who were killed in the American Civil War....or those that have died in any war since the invention of firearms...oh and the shooter at Ft. Hood was taken down with FMJ...
3) I heard about this one guy one time at band camp...ok, first off no one was killed when the M9/92FS cracked up, a certain group of Naval Special Warfare personnel were doing unauthorized testing with unapproved handloads...you can either file a FOIA request and get the report from DoD or talk with the guys out at Accoceck at the Beretta Factory, they are always willing to provide information since every internet bandit there is wants think he is an expert without providing any real proof....
4) EVERY UNINTENTIONAL DISCHARGE I witnessed or investigated or read the AAR on in both IRAQ and AFGHANISTAN came down to one factor: THE OPERATOR DID NOT FOLLOW CLEARING PROCEDURES...now I don't agree with pulling the trigger after I HAVE ENSURED my weapon is clear (the #1 step is to drop the magazine) but that is what DA says and as long as you get a paycheck from Uncle Sugar you will do was told....
5) The sights aren't ajustable...well the rear sight is drift adjustable for windage (they weren't on earlier models that are still in service)...armorers have to ensure they don't get knocked around when they go in the arms room...and well if you can't figure out how to function a weapon with that type of sights don't draw the weapon as a "back-up" or change your MOS so you don't get one issued.....

The 92 and 96 series are what they are...full size service weapons. The biggest issue that DA has had with them, since I can only assume what other Branches face, is maintenance. These weapons are issued in bulk and stored the same way along with the magazines. So if the operator doesn't take care of it then you get what you put into it. As far as magazines failing, DA bought aftermarket magazines that were the lowest bidder...caused a lot of problems; however, the company got so many complaints from service members that they made changes and they are better now. I have carried either the M9 (92FS) or the M11(SigSauer P228) for almost 18 years, both in my opinion are fine weapons as long as the person carrying it knows what he/she is doing. People will always complain about the tool instead of their own failure. My soldiers on SRT (Special Response Team-Military Police SWAT) and those that were with me in Iraq could make head shots during hostage situations, double tap failure drills, etc...all with this supposedly inferior weapon. It all comes down to training...you either work with what you have or go somewhere else. Is it a CCW weapon, depends, I carry one on the job everyday and sometimes as my CCW (personal owned for off-duty). Depending on the situation while I am off duty I will carry a Smith, or Sig.....Just my experience/opinion.

THAT as they say, is THAT! Thanks for your post and, well, Welcome to the Forum! People like you make this a great place!

rags

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

I always love this topic....

1) Is the 92FS a good gun...yes
2) 9mm FMJ is anemic....sure compared to .50 cal, and if anyone wants to take me up on it: stand at 5,7,15, 25yds and let me shoot you with my 92FS or M9 and see how anemic it is....SHOT PLACEMENT SHOT PLACEMENT SHOT PLACEMENT!!!! BTW when JHP or EJHP fail to expand they are ball or FMJ...and if you don't think FMJ works ask the 600,000 or so personnel who were killed in the American Civil War....or those that have died in any war since the invention of firearms...oh and the shooter at Ft. Hood was taken down with FMJ...
3) I heard about this one guy one time at band camp...ok, first off no one was killed when the M9/92FS cracked up, a certain group of Naval Special Warfare personnel were doing unauthorized testing with unapproved handloads...you can either file a FOIA request and get the report from DoD or talk with the guys out at Accoceck at the Beretta Factory, they are always willing to provide information since every internet bandit there is wants think he is an expert without providing any real proof....
4) EVERY UNINTENTIONAL DISCHARGE I witnessed or investigated or read the AAR on in both IRAQ and AFGHANISTAN came down to one factor: THE OPERATOR DID NOT FOLLOW CLEARING PROCEDURES...now I don't agree with pulling the trigger after I HAVE ENSURED my weapon is clear (the #1 step is to drop the magazine) but that is what DA says and as long as you get a paycheck from Uncle Sugar you will do was told....
5) The sights aren't ajustable...well the rear sight is drift adjustable for windage (they weren't on earlier models that are still in service)...armorers have to ensure they don't get knocked around when they go in the arms room...and well if you can't figure out how to function a weapon with that type of sights don't draw the weapon as a "back-up" or change your MOS so you don't get one issued.....

The 92 and 96 series are what they are...full size service weapons. The biggest issue that DA has had with them, since I can only assume what other Branches face, is maintenance. These weapons are issued in bulk and stored the same way along with the magazines. So if the operator doesn't take care of it then you get what you put into it. As far as magazines failing, DA bought aftermarket magazines that were the lowest bidder...caused a lot of problems; however, the company got so many complaints from service members that they made changes and they are better now. I have carried either the M9 (92FS) or the M11(SigSauer P228) for almost 18 years, both in my opinion are fine weapons as long as the person carrying it knows what he/she is doing. People will always complain about the tool instead of their own failure. My soldiers on SRT (Special Response Team-Military Police SWAT) and those that were with me in Iraq could make head shots during hostage situations, double tap failure drills, etc...all with this supposedly inferior weapon. It all comes down to training...you either work with what you have or go somewhere else. Is it a CCW weapon, depends, I carry one on the job everyday and sometimes as my CCW (personal owned for off-duty). Depending on the situation while I am off duty I will carry a Smith, or Sig.....Just my experience/opinion.

Well you just killed a good thread with FACTS-shame on you

 

[daveh75]

Rags....are you be facetious? =)

Cajun...the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth =)

Yes I am new here to the forum, but have spent the last 18 years learning all that I can about how to operate the M9/M11, and while I am no expert I have grown tired of hearing folks spread myths and rumors about these weapon systems. And while I feel folks are entitled to their opinions, I can't stand "expert advise" without the references to back it up....I know I know I am a skeptic....but hey our Constitution still allows for that=)

 

[daveh75]

"BTW, someone mentioned someone using an M-2 and not stopping someone with either it or a 9mm. I guess this M-2 was the .30 carbine? I've heard that they aren't great stoppers. Just surprised to find them in use in Iraq."

The M-2 is the Browning .50 cal Air Cooled Machine Gun...commonly referred to as the "Ma Deuce". The M1 is a .30 cal carbine.