Beretta M-92: Your Opinion?

[JayCeeNC]

I used to run the armory at a US Army base in the South in 2008. I had 150 M-4's and 150 M-9's. M-9's were fired about 150 rounds per week by students.
Problems I saw with the M-9:
Barrel locking lug broken
Barrel split
Frame cracked in one or more places
Slide cracked
Trigger spring broken
Takedown lever spring broken
Sights fell off
Right side safety lever broken off
Firing pin stuck in forward position
Various parts falling off of frame when you took off the slide
Grip screws stripped

I own one because I train military folks with it.
I was issued one as a sheriff's deputy in the early 1990's.
It shoots fine, but it can break and be rendered inoperative in so many ways.

 

[rags]

Rags....are you be facetious? =)

Cajun...the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth =)

Yes I am new here to the forum, but have spent the last 18 years learning all that I can about how to operate the M9/M11, and while I am no expert I have grown tired of hearing folks spread myths and rumors about these weapon systems. And while I feel folks are entitled to their opinions, I can't stand "expert advise" without the references to back it up....I know I know I am a skeptic....but hey our Constitution still allows for that=)

Nope! Dead serious!! Really.

rags

 

[Maximumbob54]

Here I was hoping someone found an old grease gun in a locker in some National Guard Armory and just hit the 2 instead of the 3 key...

 

[bishopm14]

"BTW, someone mentioned someone using an M-2 and not stopping someone with either it or a 9mm. I guess this M-2 was the .30 carbine? I've heard that they aren't great stoppers. Just surprised to find them in use in Iraq."

The M-2 is the Browning .50 cal Air Cooled Machine Gun...commonly referred to as the "Ma Deuce". The M1 is a .30 cal carbine.

And an M2 (no dashes in either) is also a full auto capable .30 carbine.

 

[Texas Star]

And an M2 (no dashes in either) is also a full auto capable .30 carbine.

Moreover, I have never heard of a .50 cal. machinegun not stopping someone. But the .30 carbine is notorious for that

 

[Texas Star]

I used to run the armory at a US Army base in the South in 2008. I had 150 M-4's and 150 M-9's. M-9's were fired about 150 rounds per week by students.
Problems I saw with the M-9:
Barrel locking lug broken
Barrel split
Frame cracked in one or more places
Slide cracked
Trigger spring broken
Takedown lever spring broken
Sights fell off
Right side safety lever broken off
Firing pin stuck in forward position
Various parts falling off of frame when you took off the slide
Grip screws stripped

I own one because I train military folks with it.
I was issued one as a sheriff's deputy in the early 1990's.
It shoots fine, but it can break and be rendered inoperative in so many ways.

150 rounds a week is 7800 rounds annually, if one discounts probable holidays. For how many years were some of these guns used at that pace before breaking? How often were these training guns cleaned? How frequently were the recoil springs replaced?

Your post was good, but didn't include vital information. Too often, posts about the M9 are in that realm. Getting objective data instead of partisan comments on this subject is difficult.

For the record, I'd probably rather have a 1911 .45 if new, and I especially prefer the Colt in stainless. The Beretta Inox has some sort of silver paint (?) on the light alloy frame, and it reportedly isn't too durable. On the Colt, the frame is stainless steel, and the total weight of the gun remains reasonable.

The CZ also comes in stainless, frame included.

One reason why I bought the Beretta in the usual Bruniton finish is that I worry about the finish on the frame of the Inox model.

9mm vs. .45 controversies almost always omit that in the Korean war, the .45 sometimes failed to penetrate quilted clothing worn by the enemy. The 9mm and .357 did penetrate. With our next war likely to be again in Korea, that may be a factor.

 

[daveh75]

Bishop: thanks for the catch I forgot about the full auto version, they also produced the M3 which if I recall had an early IR scope on it. I should have been more specific, thanks again.

 

[ASA335]

I was on active duty (Army) when the transition was made from the 1911A1 to the M9. I had been in the Army for about eleven years by then, had been on several Army pistol teams and was qualified as a marksmanship instructor (pistol and revolver). I helped both the 8th ID and the 1st AD in their transition training to the M9.

“…it was loaded to PROOF pressures!”

The official report I read at that time said that some NATO machine pistol (MP) rounds may have been fired through some of their pistols. MP rounds are often loaded to higher pressure levels than straight pistol rounds, but they are not necessarily “proof” rounds. The MP rounds (to the best of my recollection) were not commonly fired in the SF M9s – it was most likely just a rare event.

“Do you think it's under engineered to handle the pressure peaks in .40 S&W?”

I don’t know; I’m not an engineer.

“P.S. Does anyone know if the military has bought the improved locking blocks?”

I was told (or read) back then the issue M9s were modified to reduce the risk of “slide failure”, but I do not know if it was the same modification as is/was used on the civilian models (though I suspect that the military solution was the basis for the civilian solution, at least).

I wasn’t a big fan of the M9 being a general issue pistol:

I’d carried and shot the M1911A1 for a decade and was very comfortable with it and was never able to shoot the M9 as well as I could with the M1911A1.

Being limited to “hard ball”, I prefer a big “hard ball” - .45 is bigger than 9mm.

In training Army shooters with the M9 I found the transition from double action for the first shot to single action for the follow up shots was problematic for many of the trainees (given the limited amount of time we had to train them).*

The “trigger reach” for the M9 for too many hands was just too much (especially for females, and especially in DA mode), so correct placement of the gun in the shooters hand was very often impossible to achieve (which affected the shooters ability for rapid accurate shots). It was easier for me to get trainees to qualify “Expert” with the M1911A1 than it was with the M9.

I wish the military had simply updated the M1911A1 (a M1911A2) rather than gone with a completely new pistol.

* Note: The basics of pistol marksmanship are the same regardless of which pistol is chosen, so the only real difference in training between the M1911A1 and the M9 is in teaching double action shooting for the M9. I’d shot double action revolvers for most of my shooting life (plus I was a former member of a sheriffs’ office PPC revolver team before I was an Army marksmanship instructor) and I did receive the official “train the trainer” class for the M9 before I started the transition training, so I fairly well knew how to teach DA shooting.

 

[rockquarry]

beretta 9mm

You requested opinions; I have not read all the posts here, so pardon any of my comments that others may have already addressed. I began using the Beretta 9mm in the late 1980s. I have no idea how much I have fired mine, but it's been a lot, mostly with full charge cast bullet loads.

Even using heavy SWC bullets designed for the .38 Special, the Beretta is next to impossible to jam. It will feed virtually anything and it always fires. Extremely dependable pistol. Never had anything break or malfunction. While not an incredibly accurate handgun, mine actually does better with cast bullets than jacketed. Nothing seems to shoot to point of aim regardless of bullet weight and velocity, but for its intended purpose, it's close enough.

The Beretta is a huge pistol and a heavy one, but these factors make it easier to shoot (for most people). I bought a Sig 226 about the same time I purchased the Beretta. The Sig is a bit smaller, feels better in the hand, and is more accurate than the Beretta. It, too, will feed almost any ammo, but it seems the chamber is slightly tighter than the Beretta.

I guess everything can be worn out eventually, but other than surface finish wear, my Beretta seems as tight as it was when new. It gets cleaned and lubed after every shooting session.

 

[Texas Star]

rockquarry-

How often have you changed springs? Locking blocks? Ever?

Your use seems most like mine will be, BTW. GI guns are often abused in training and by misuse in the field by ill-trained personnel. They also get get shot a lot without proper maintenance or replacement.

Is your Beterra the M-92F or the FS, with the device to prevent the slide blowing off if the slide separates?
Thanks for your excellent post.

T-Star

 

[JayCeeNC]

For how many years were some of these guns used at that pace before breaking? How often were these training guns cleaned? How frequently were the recoil springs replaced?

Your post was good, but didn't include vital information.

TS, I do not have all the info you request, if I did I would share it.
Guns were there when I got there, not sure how long they'd been in service.
Range sessions were two days a week, guns were cleaned and inspected once a week before the next range session.
Some guns were outfitted with the "new" locking blocks after breaking, but the new ones would break as well after a few weeks.

The vital information I was trying to add to the conversation is a recap of malfunctions and breakages I saw on a weekly basis. Take it for what it's worth, YMMV, etc.

 

[sasu]

I have a Beretta M9. I shoot it in IPSC competition and it is my favourite gun for our weekly IDPA training sessions.

I have shot thousands of rounds through my Beretta and it has not had any malfunctions. My only other pistols with a totally clean function record are S&W 5906 and 5903.

The Beretta is very pleasant and easy to handle and shoot, it is finished beautifully. It is a big pistol but that is not a problem in my competition oriented use. I shoot revolvers in IPSC/IDPA, too, so the double action trigger is not a problem at all. I have long ago trained myself to be fast and accurate with a double action trigger.

The barrel locking block on the Berettas had a tendency to break at around 30 000 shots, and then Beretta modified it. The current version of the locking block is said to last longer than the barrel itself. But just in case I have bought a couple of spare locking blocks.

The slide was modified by Beretta a long time ago so that it cannot fly off the frame in case it breaks. This modification was made after the infamous slide failures. There are some variations of the Beretta (Brigadier and Elite?) that have a thicker slide at the ejection port, to make it less likely to break.

I love the 1911 design, I own many variations, but still, when I go to the range, I very often end up taking the M9 with me, out of more than a dozen pistols. It is a fantastic pistol with an endearing character, good handling qualities and trouble free.

 

[Texas Star]

TS, I do not have all the info you request, if I did I would share it.
Guns were there when I got there, not sure how long they'd been in service.
Range sessions were two days a week, guns were cleaned and inspected once a week before the next range session.
Some guns were outfitted with the "new" locking blocks after breaking, but the new ones would break as well after a few weeks.

The vital information I was trying to add to the conversation is a recap of malfunctions and breakages I saw on a weekly basis. Take it for what it's worth, YMMV, etc.

JayCee-

Thanks for this added info. I wasn't demeaning what you posted, just saying that all the required info wasn't there. You can't tell us about guns that were there when you arrrived. What you did say is nonetheless valuable!

BTW, I think there have been three revisions of the locking block. It seems to have gradually gotten out the bugs.

 

[Texas Star]

I have a Beretta M9. I shoot it in IPSC competition and it is my favourite gun for our weekly IDPA training sessions.

I have shot thousands of rounds through my Beretta and it has not had any malfunctions. My only other pistols with a totally clean function record are S&W 5906 and 5903.

The Beretta is very pleasant and easy to handle and shoot, it is finished beautifully. It is a big pistol but that is not a problem in my competition oriented use. I shoot revolvers in IPSC/IDPA, too, so the double action trigger is not a problem at all. I have long ago trained myself to be fast and accurate with a double action trigger.

The barrel locking block on the Berettas had a tendency to break at around 30 000 shots, and then Beretta modified it. The current version of the locking block is said to last longer than the barrel itself. But just in case I have bought a couple of spare locking blocks.

The slide was modified by Beretta a long time ago so that it cannot fly off the frame in case it breaks. This modification was made after the infamous slide failures. There are some variations of the Beretta (Brigadier and Elite?) that have a thicker slide at the ejection port, to make it less likely to break.

I love the 1911 design, I own many variations, but still, when I go to the range, I very often end up taking the M9 with me, out of more than a dozen pistols. It is a fantastic pistol with an endearing character, good handling qualities and trouble free.

Sasu-

How do the S&W autos compare in accuracy to the Beretta? The only one I've shot, a M-39-2, was awful.

Do Finnish gun laws let you own many pistols? I think I asked you awhile back what Finland issues to troops. Was it the Glock 17, or is my memory failing?

I always enjoy your posts and your superb English. You spell better than many of the native speakers on this board!

Your experience with the M-9 was very informative. I don't shoot in competition, so my guns should last at least as well as yours.

Do you shoot a CZ-75? I had one, until my son talked me out of it. It never jammed and was exceedingly accurate. I may well get another, especially now that they have a stainless version.

Thanks,

T-Star

 

[safearm]

I transitioned from the M15 to the M9 during Operation Desert Shield. I carried the M9 through Allied Force, Enduring Freedom, and Iraqi Freedom, both in the air and on the ground.

The M9 is a big handgun for the size of the round it fires, however, it wasn't designed as a concealed carry gun, but as a service weapon to be carried visibly in a holster.

The M9 is accurate and reliable; the only negative issues I ever experienced were with the magazines in Iraq; they would get clogged with the talcum powder like sand. Daily maintenance i.e., taking care of the equipment that can save your life, was the answer, although new magazines were procured and issued.

The issues about the safety/decocker are frivilous; how many years and how many guns have S&W, Ruger, and Walther manufactured, and continue to manufacture, with the same type of device without issue? It's proper use is a training issue.

In all, I carried a M9 for 18 years and would carry one into battle without hesitation. Is there better ammo than M882 ball? Of course, and more effective ammo makes the M9/92FS a better weapon.

I have a M9 that was a gift upon retirement and I don't plan on giving it up anytime soon.

 

[Texas Star]

I transitioned from the M15 to the M9 during Operation Desert Shield. I carried the M9 through Allied Force, Enduring Freedom, and Iraqi Freedom, both in the air and on the ground.

The M9 is a big handgun for the size of the round it fires, however, it wasn't designed as a concealed carry gun, but as a service weapon to be carried visibly in a holster.

The M9 is accurate and reliable; the only negative issues I ever experienced were with the magazines in Iraq; they would get clogged with the talcum powder like sand. Daily maintenance i.e., taking care of the equipment that can save your life, was the answer, although new magazines were procured and issued.

The issues about the safety/decocker are frivilous; how many years and how many guns have S&W, Ruger, and Walther manufactured, and continue to manufacture, with the same type of device without issue? It's proper use is a training issue.

In all, I carried a M9 for 18 years and would carry one into battle without hesitation. Is there better ammo than M882 ball? Of course, and more effective ammo makes the M9/92FS a better weapon.

I have a M9 that was a gift upon retirement and I don't plan on giving it up anytime soon.

Safearm-

So...what'd you fly? I like planes, too.

Did you hear about the pilot who had to eject in Iraq, I think in the first Gulf War? Just gave up when some villagers approached him, although air cover was minutes away. I suspect that he had minimal confidence in his sidearm and his ability to use one.

But a USAF cop nailed a thug with an AK-47 at, I believe, Fairchild AFB, WA with one shot at about 80 yards. The guy was a bicycle cop and was armed only with an M9 9mm.

My limited exposure to pilots in the Air Force was that most didn't take handguns seriously or seek to use them well.

I read Capt. Scott O'Grady's book, "Return With Honor", about his successful evasion after his F-16 was shot down over Bosnia. He complained that his M9 rusted. Thankfully, he didn't have to use it, although the enemy sometimes passed by within a few feet! (Obviously, his goal was to hide, in those circumstances.)

BTW, he also didn't think much of the issue survival knife, which also rusted and wasn't very sharp. He preferred his Swiss Army knife for what cutting he did.

I understand that he was/is on the NRA Board of Directors, and probably knows how to use a pistol better than the average fighter pilot.

 

[sw44spl]

I have a 92 made in italy I carried as a cop. I like it.when I was in the army we carried the 1911.but now I feel the military needs to get with the program and go to a 40sw in some kind of gun maybe a glock.if untrained non gun owning cops can learn it fast so can a boot in basic. I bet fmj 40sw ammo will not be weak like they claim the 9mm fmjs are.

 

[GatorFarmer]

The Corpsmen that I talked to the other day seemed tickled pink that they were now being issue an M4 and an M9 when deploying. Apparently having "one more gun than the average Marine" as the one guy put it was comforting.

The Parris Island shooting team still uses 1911s, or so I was told by one of the guys on it. Five rounds in the mag, and they're tuned. Haven't seen one.

They've always fit my hand like a glove (92/96s). I can generally pick one up and hit what I want to with it.

My wife didn't have trouble qualifying with it years ago, and still likes the feel. She has an ex Indiana State Police 96G (decock only) in .40. I did read that the .40's had some unexplained jams, hence they were dumped as trade ins by some agencies. I don't know the veracity of that.

During the AWB era, I purchased an ex agency 92D Centurion b/c it has a factory 15rd mag in. The night sights were still glowing and dated 92 if I remember right. I think that I got it in 96.

The day I took it home, the cheap cardboard box it came in broke taking it out of the trunk and sent the gun bouncing of the concrete and into a muck puddle of filth water and gravel. I cleaned it in the bathtub with soap and oiled it later with WD40.

I shot that pistol a lot. I used whatever random mags I could get - cheap USA mags, mystery mags, etc. So long as they were shaped well enough to be forced in the mag well (some weren't) they all fed, at least with FMJ.

I took to always just cleaning it in the shower or tub and then oiling it. When I lost a grip screw, I made one fit from an old Cz27. It didn't match, but it worked.

I never changed out any parts.

I don't remember that pistol ever failing or giving me any problems.

I don't remember any of the Marines I've talked to around here, or back at Quantico, saying anything about the M9s one way or another. A random Army vet I talked to had liked his railed model and spent a fair amount of money getting a shoulder rig made up for it back here in the states instead of locally in theater like most people do. (The locals sold the one Marine here a nice one he said, but stamped the leather "Glock", to them probably a sign of quality. He said that bothered him a little, and I pointed out that he was lucked it wasn't stamped "Rolex" or "Coca Cola".)

Circa 2007 I remember people buying their own mags sometimes to take along with them, and some being sent in care packages. At one point the stated solution to the problem of bad mags was supposed to be just loading them with ten rounds. I've also read - from those who'd apparently know - that sand and grit can get in many of the mags and impede functioning. Also that the Beretta 92 family needs extra attention to keeping it lubricated. (I used olive oil on mine once, worked fine. Shrug.)

 

[sipowicz]

Yesterday a deputy came into the mobile range and his 92 jammed on the first round....tap, rack, same thing. I took his gun, tore it down and noticed it hadn't been cleaned in years...dry as a bone and black carbon everywhere...also, the locking block was also frozen in place....I cleaned it up for him and gave it a good oiling and no problems after that...he never knew he was carrying a single shot pistol in the field...

 

[hummveecop]

I was on active duty (Army) when the transition was made from the 1911A1 to the M9. I had been in the Army for about eleven years by then, had been on several Army pistol teams and was qualified as a marksmanship instructor (pistol and revolver). I helped both the 8th ID and the 1st AD in their transition training to the M9.

“…it was loaded to PROOF pressures!”

The official report I read at that time said that some NATO machine pistol (MP) rounds may have been fired through some of their pistols. MP rounds are often loaded to higher pressure levels than straight pistol rounds, but they are not necessarily “proof” rounds. The MP rounds (to the best of my recollection) were not commonly fired in the SF M9s – it was most likely just a rare event.

“Do you think it's under engineered to handle the pressure peaks in .40 S&W?”

I don’t know; I’m not an engineer.

“P.S. Does anyone know if the military has bought the improved locking blocks?”

I was told (or read) back then the issue M9s were modified to reduce the risk of “slide failure”, but I do not know if it was the same modification as is/was used on the civilian models (though I suspect that the military solution was the basis for the civilian solution, at least).

I wasn’t a big fan of the M9 being a general issue pistol:

I’d carried and shot the M1911A1 for a decade and was very comfortable with it and was never able to shoot the M9 as well as I could with the M1911A1.

Being limited to “hard ball”, I prefer a big “hard ball” - .45 is bigger than 9mm.

In training Army shooters with the M9 I found the transition from double action for the first shot to single action for the follow up shots was problematic for many of the trainees (given the limited amount of time we had to train them).*

The “trigger reach” for the M9 for too many hands was just too much (especially for females, and especially in DA mode), so correct placement of the gun in the shooters hand was very often impossible to achieve (which affected the shooters ability for rapid accurate shots). It was easier for me to get trainees to qualify “Expert” with the M1911A1 than it was with the M9.

I wish the military had simply updated the M1911A1 (a M1911A2) rather than gone with a completely new pistol.

* Note: The basics of pistol marksmanship are the same regardless of which pistol is chosen, so the only real difference in training between the M1911A1 and the M9 is in teaching double action shooting for the M9. I’d shot double action revolvers for most of my shooting life (plus I was a former member of a sheriffs’ office PPC revolver team before I was an Army marksmanship instructor) and I did receive the official “train the trainer” class for the M9 before I started the transition training, so I fairly well knew how to teach DA shooting.

I agree, the biggest mistake our military made was the switch from the 1911 to the M9. Elite units still carry the .45 - a tribute to its effectiveness. Never had a Beretta, but 20+ years ago as a community college cop, we could carry anything we could qualify with. I grew up with 1911's, which my Dad loved, so I was used cocked and locked carry. One of my choices for 9mm - not my fave caliber, too weak IMO - was the Taurus PT99, due to its capability of cocked and locked carry. Not crazy of guns that have de-cockers or drop the hammer, but I've owned a few Sigs too. Still have that Taurus today. My favorite duty guns ? A 6 inch Colt Python, an S&W M29 in 4 and 6 inches and my Glock 20 and 21.