Berry's Plated Bullet's Quality

[BLUEDOT37]

Previously, I've only handloaded with cast or jacketed bullets. Recently I tried some Berry's plated bullets. Here's the email I sent Berry's:

I bought a box of your bullets (41 cal. 210gr FP #62049), for the first time, a month ago. I was impressed with them more that I anticipated, so I just bought a box of your .44 cal. 240gr FP, #97080, Lot# 070925, qty. 200, today & am hugely disappointed. All of the 44 cal bullets vary from .4270/.4280", just below the shoulder on the bearing surface, to .4285/.4295" right at the base. The middle of the bearing surface of the bullets are only .428". (The 41 cal were a nominal .4095" all along the bearing surface.) If I put a 44 cal bullet in my caliper's jaws long way, along the bearing surface, nose to base, & hold it up to the light I can readily see light between the caliper blades & the bullet bearing surfaces because the bullets are essentially tapered from the base to the shoulder. In fact, the bullet wants to rotate out of the caliper's grip because it's only making good contact at the base & the nose tries to pivot around because it has no contact. Essentially every 44 cal bullet I checked had the same problem. (If I do the same thing with the 41 cal bullets, the caliper & bearing surface are flush/parallel with essentially no light readily visible between them, like you'd expect.)

They asked if I could send a sample to them. I packaged up (5) bullets & mailed them a week ago. I just got an email back. Initially it said I could have my money back if I wanted but nothing as to whether they considered them out of specs. I pressed them for an answer & the best I could get was "it is our standard bullet", a very noncommittal answer, which I interpret to mean they see nothing wrong with them. Well, I do.

I sampled some of my other name brand jacketed bullets & they are don't have any such issues, nor do any cast bullets I checked. I wasn't looking for a defect in the Berry's originally, just doing a normal diameter check with my digital caliber when this became obvious.

I know if I load them up & put powder in the case they will come out the barrel. Plated bullets cost more than cast bullets, so why should I settle for less quality?

What's your opinions? Has anybody else noticed anything like this?

(I took some pictures but it's really hard to get what the eye sees in the picture but these are as close as I can get, unless I had an extra right hand.)


Berry's 44 Cal. 240gr Preferred Plated Flat Point bullets
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Berrys 240gr PFP 44

(-01a)

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Berrys 240gr PFP 44

(-02a)

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[arjay]

I'd load some up and see how (or if) they group.

 

[scooter123]

I agree with arjay, shoot them and see how they perform. I'll also point out that calipers are not the best choice for measuring bullet diameters, a far better choice is 4 place micrometers with a ratchet or clutch spindle.

However if the bullets you have in the jaws of your calipers are aligned perpendicular to your lens I do understand your concern. Fact is that does look as if a sizing operation was missed.

One thing you may want to look into is Berry's Double Struck bullets. These go through an additional sizing operation after plating to refine the diameter and they only cost a small premium compared to their standard bullets. The key identifier for the Double Struck bullets is a DS in the part number, so you may want to look closely at the label for that box of 41 caliber bullets.

 

[YARDDOG]

A micrometer is best for measuring bullets as mentioned above..

I'd shoot a few before anything,, might work out great, Never know ; )
Y/D

 

[robertrwalsh]

Mostly I have had very good luck with Berry's. I have shot a fair amount of the .45 acp and 9mm 124.

 

[Engineer1911]

If you are seeking perfection in all facets of reloading, I'd suggest a new hobby and shoot only factory ammo.

Load up 24 rounds and check the accuracy. Life is too short for these issues.

 

[shortrange]

I am not sure why anyone would buy these plated bullets? If it is because of leading issues, get some quality bullet molds and learn how to cast with the correct alloy, size and lube and all problems will go away and you will have accuracy.

 

[OKFC05]

I am not sure why anyone would buy these plated bullets?

I load Berry .38 158gr as my standard competition load because it eliminates the cloud of lube smoke from shooting lead bullets rapid fire.
For slow fire or just plinking, I use 148gr Lee TL wadcutters, unsized. The gun sizes them very nicely when they are fired.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

However if the bullets you have in the jaws of your calipers are aligned perpendicular to your lens I do understand your concern. Fact is that does look as if a sizing operation was missed.

Disregarding any questions concerning my ability to check the size of a bullet's dia. with a caliper, you are correct that the bullets bearing sides are not parallel to the jaws of the caliper. It's not an optical illusion. The bearing surfaces are tapered away from the jaws toward the nose because the base is larger, not the same, as the rest of the bullet. If they were parallel, like every other bullet I've checked, you would not see any light between the bullet's bearing surface & the caliper's jaws. I used this method only to display the flaw more easily.

If you are seeking perfection in all facets of reloading, I'd suggest a new hobby and shoot only factory ammo.

No, I am not seeking perfection, never suggested I was, but I would like to get a product that equals the price I paid or is of comparable value.

----------------------------------------------

And I'm not sure I understand why the dismissal of the sizing concern of this, at least. How many times has it been discussed about proper bullet sizing. Slugging your barrel & cylinder throats to find the proper sized bullet for your gun. These bullets are supposed to be .429" & there's hardly a point on it that's .429". In fact, the majority of the bearing surface is .0010 to .0020" smaller dia.
What's the sense of doing those checks & then buy bullets that are of this quality?
Is it asking too much for a bullet to have parallel sides & be of uniform diameter?
Should we be happy with what ever a manufacturer wants to stick in a box?
And because they didn't admit to anything being out of specs with the bullet, doesn't mean there isn't.
The 41's & the 44s are the same Berry's model/style but the 41s don't have this issue.

 

[jmmitc06]

I agree with the previous post, try shooting a small sample of them and see if they group well, if they do it doesn't imply that they are in spec but if they don't it would suggest something is wrong with them.

I haven't bought a significant quantity of berry's bullets (2 boxes of 45 and 9mm don't remember weights off hand) but I have never had a problem with them. Also, comparing between brands will not reveal a problem with the berry's bullets, the only way to confirm they are out of spec is either to get the manufacturer to confirm it (which it doesn't sound like they will or they believe they are in spec) or buy another box of berry's from a different batch (not sure if you can check if they are from the same batch or not) and see if the same behavior occurs.

I am shopping around for 44cal bullets now and will keep this in mind when I make a purchase, thanks for the observation none the less.

As for switch to factory if you want perfection, who here considers factory ammo to be perfect? I for one believe and have the statistics to support the claim that my reloaded ammo exceeds the factory ammo in terms of consistency and performance.

 

[Fkimble]

These are not jacketed bullets, they are plated lead bullets. They will bump up to fit the barrel when fired. Buy em, shoot em. If they shoot good buy more, if not try another brand.

 

[blujax01]

They offered you a full refund. Send the bullets back and move on.

 

[scooter123]

Bluedot, the reason why we are suggesting that you try shooting a sampling of these bullets is because EXPERIENCE has shown that bullet diameter is not quite as critical as some would have us believe. Note, I am not saying that there aren't limits to what is tolerable, just that those limits can be surprisingly wide. It's also dependent on the firearm used. So many times the wisest course of action is some real world testing.

As for the use of calipers versus micrometer, have you ever done a 30 or 50 piece capability study on your ability to get an accurate measurement with calipers? If you had you would understand why I use micrometers for critical measurements. Because if you are good you can only get within 0.001 inch with calipers while with micrometers you can get within 0.0002 inch.

 

[Forrest r]

I'm with you bluedot, that undersized tapered bullet just makes life harder. It makes them allot harder to crimp & bad things can happen when you get anywhere near full house loads.

Like you said, they cost more & you just want a quality bullet that works.

Before I would even think about shooting them I'd drop in your cylinder/cylinders & check for fit. If they go thru or hang out of the cylinders & can easily be pushed out, I wouldn't use them.

Personally I'd get a refund & move on, the crimping of the smaller bullet would be enough for me..

 

[Cpo1944]

I agree with the OP there is a problem if he is trying for real good accuracy. I have a Marlin 1894 rifle which would positively hate those Berrys and probably tumble every one of them sideways into the target!

I found some good lead bullets from Mitchels in Texas which are .432 and found they work well in the Marlin. I have to be careful and keep them separate from my revolver .44`s which aint fussy and use anything I can find.

 

[Duster340]

I have had very good results with Berrys plated bullets for both my .44 mag (240 gr PFP) and .40 S&W (180 gr PFP & PRS). They shoot better than I can hold

 

[BLUEDOT37]

Lost point?

I'm not sure if something was lost here but my point in sharing & creating this thread was intended to be about the relative quality, & lack of consistency, in the Berry's product I have observed with my limited purchases, & to see if it has been observed by anyone else & bring awareness to it, for what it's worth.

 

[Nevada Ed]

I was under the impression that plated bullets were low cost target bullets and also used since they do not lead the barrel like lead target bullets; and not to be confused with the higher quality thick copper jacket bullets used in high velocity loads, hunting and SD use.

I just think some people expect too much for this bullet or try to make it do more than it is capable of doing. To me it is a 0-50 yards training bullet ..... if you want to win matches, you might have to lay a little more money on the counter..... at least with my guns and loads.

 

[WR Moore]

Plated bullets by process may vary somewhat from their ideal diameter. If you're seeking absolute diameters, do as someone else suggested and buy the Berrys Double Struck (DS) bullets. These are sized after plating to produce more uniform diameters for those needing/desiring such precision.

I went to plated bullets some years ago because it was becoming impossible to find lead bullets with consistent application of lubricant. When challenged on the poor filling of the grease grooves, the response (from firms with national sales and reputations for quality) was that there was sufficient lube to do the job. My experience was that their statement was in error, at least in my barrels. I've never tried Berrys .44 bullets but have no complaints about the performance of their 9mm bullets, either double stuck or standard.

Frankly, in 40 some years of reloading, the only time I've miked bullets was after poor performance. I can only recall one instance where the bullet diameter made a difference ( 0.356 bullet in a 0.358 barrel).

 

[MRIBFR460SWMAG]

that is garbage manufacturing, move on? I don't think so. Why use that? Thank you for bringing this to attention. I was just looking at these bullets yesterday. The manufacturer isn't acknowledging a real defect and not being forthcoming. That puts them on my trash list. You should notify the vendor source of this problem, and out of shape bullets are a problem, refusal to acknowledge is a systemic manufacturer problem. What's next? I won't risk these guys.

I'm getting a sizing die because I will be casting, that would probably solve this issue with size, but not the issue with trust.

 

[blujax01]

I'm not sure if something was lost here but my point in sharing & creating this thread was intended to be about the relative quality, & lack of consistency, in the Berry's product I have observed with my limited purchases, & to see if it has been observed by anyone else & bring awareness to it, for what it's worth.

Okay, I'll play.

When you speak of "relative quality & lack of consistency", the obvious question is "relative to what?" Inexpensive plated bullets from other manufacturers? Other lots from Berry's? Other calibers of plated bullets?

Or is it one lot of one caliber from one manufacturer - which allows for zero discussion of relativity.

Lack of consistency? It appears to me that each and every one of those bullets is identical in size, shape, and weight. The fact that you don't like the size, shape and weight is another conversation.

As Nevada Ed pointed out, plated bullets are fine for what they are - inexpensive practice ammo. I cannot use open lead at my range, something about lead dust in the air. Whatever. Plated bullets fill my need and Berry's shoot just fine in 9mm, 38 spl and 45 acp. And lot after lot, thousand after thousand, year after year, they are consistent in size, shape and weight.

If I'm looking for high power or super accurate loads, I'm looking at FMJ/JHP/SJHP, which cost 2x plated.

Shoot them or send them back.

 

[novalty]

I had great success with Berry's 230gr. RN for my 1911 was a very accurate bullet for me.

Forrest r, we are generally right in sync with our reloading thought, but I have to disagree with your statement.

I'm with you bluedot, that undersized tapered bullet just makes life harder. It makes them allot harder to crimp & bad things can happen when you get anywhere near full house loads.

As far as I know you are only supposed to taper crimp these bullets, any over crimping will affect the plating on the bullet. .428 at the bearing surface still seems sufficient to get a light crimp on the bullet.

As far being near full house loads, Berry's specifically warns against loading over mid-range.

When loading plated bullets we have found best results using low- to mid-range jacketed data in the load manual. You must use data for a bullet that has the same weight and profile as the one you are loading. Do not exceed mid-range loads. Do not use magnum loads.

As far as cost versus quality. Cabelas list those 44 cal. 240gr. FP bullets at $41.99 for 250--or $0.17 per bullet. Rainier is showing a 500ct. of same style bullet for $81.99--or $0.18 per bullet. Now make the jump to FMJ, Hornady 240gr. XTP-HP's $27.99 per 100. Nosler JSP's $52.99 per 250 or $0.21 per bullet. Sierra JSHP's for $26.99 per 100. Now on the opposite end Oregon Trail $134.99 per 1000, or $0.135 per bullet. So Berry's is priced like they state between lead and FMJ bullets. If you want a different plated bullet, try purchasing from Rainier or Xtreme. I haven't tried any of their bullets but general reviews are good.

 

[Bkreutz]

Another option is Rocky Mountain Reloading. .45 cal NEW 230 grain Hollow Point PLATED I use them exclusively after trying a bunch of different brands of plated and Jacketed bullets. They meet my needs for accuracy and the price is right. (and they seem to always have stock on hand, maybe I'm going to screw that up by posting this).

 

[riverrat38]

Berry's web site says that all plated pistol bullets are double struck.

"All of our Preferred Plated bullets are swaged from a custom alloyed lead for uniformity, then plated to final weight and put back in a carbide die to be Re-Struck to the preferred dimension."

Best,
Rick

 

[steamloco76]

I've used several thousand Berry's Plated bullets with very good results. Their 158 gr RNFP has proven to be a very accurate bullet in .38 Special and mid range .357 Magnum loads. Also love the 230 grain RN for 45 ACP and the 240 FP for .44 Special.

Nice to shoot at the indoor range without the bullet lube smoke cloud.

PS-I just received my first order of Extreme Plated bullets. 240 grain FP in.430 which have a cannelure ! and 124 grain RN .356 for 9MM. They look very good too. Had to go with them since Berry's has been out of stock forever.

 

[riverrat38]

XtremeBullets are what I currently use. I have found Barry's and Rainier Bullets to work well, also.
I like that Xtreme bullets can be bought with a cannelure, even the WC's.
They also sell 158 gr SWC's. As far as I know, they are the only plated bullet manufactures to do so.
All of their plated bullets are double struck.
I crimp my plated rounds with a Lee FCD, using one half turn for a light crimp. All of my plated loads are sub sonic.

Best,
Rick

 

[Culina]

Try measuring a gauge pin the same way you are measuring the bullet. I know my 20+ year old Mitutoyo calipers are off by pretty close to that much. They need to be professionally adjusted or calibrated every so often. These days its probably cheaper to just get a new set.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

The point, again, was that the Berry's 44 bullets have tapered bearing surfaces, the Berry's 41 bullets do not. The type of tool I used to determine that, or it's degree of preciseness, does not change that fact, nor that you can see that taper with the naked eye, as shown in the photos.

 

[novalty]

The point, again, was that the Berry's 44 bullets have tapered bearing surfaces, the Berry's 41 bullets do not. The type of tool I used to determine that, or it's degree of preciseness, does not change that fact, nor that you can see that taper with the naked eye, as shown in the photos.

I think we all understand that the bullets are tapered, but with Berry's offering to refund your money to make you satisfied, it comes across even by the title of your thread that Berry's makes bad bullets. I bought a bag of Winchester 25-35 brass from MidwayUSA last year, while seating a bullet one of the cases split from the mouth to the shoulder. I called Winchester to make sure there were no recalls. They told me there weren't any and ended up refunding me some money-via Wichester coupon. Do I think all Winchester brass is poor quality--no. Do I think manufacturers are pumping out products as fast as they can to try to meet the demand of a market that has exploded in the past year--yes. However, it is appreciated by members when someone posts about an issue they've had, so other members can keep an eye out on similar products they've purchased.

I hope the refund from Berry's will be useful in trying a different manufacturer for your plated 44 cal needs.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

....it comes across even by the title of your thread that Berry's makes bad bullets.

Which is why in my original post I asked: "What's your opinions? Has anybody else noticed anything like this?"

The title does not state anything pro or con about Berry's.

I can only go by the 450 bullets I've bought. One caliber's box was great & the other caliber's box was poor. That's all I've got to go by, as stated.

Unlike some other posts here, I've not tried to be contentious, just present something I encountered.