Best powder for short barrel

[jarbo]

I have been making loads for my new model.60 pro 357, but I find when using H110 for 158 grain bullets, there is a little unburnt powder left in the case. I don't see this with loads I made with Unique or 231.

My question is, is it a waste to use H110 in shorter barrels? Perhaps Unique is a better powder for short barrel 357.

 

[Pisgah]

If top velocity is your goal, the powder that gives highest velocity in a longer barrel will also give the highest velocity in a snubby, regardless of how much powder is "wasted". Most of the time I find unburned powder grains to be more a sign of a weak crimp than insufficient barrel length.

 

[S&WshooterFIN]

I use Vihtavuori N310 for snubby loading

 

[BE Mike]

Power Pistol works, too!

 

[.38SuperMan]

Are you going for really hot loads?

I’m betting you have some fierce muzzle flash. If you’re not going for wrist breaking loads, try CFE Pistol. There’s a flash suppressant in it that really reduces flash.

If you’re not trying to break a wrist I’d look for the fastest powder that’ll give you the velocities you’re looking for. Advantages of fast powders, faster powders leave less unburned powder and burn more completely. Also the smaller the volume of powder the less recoil. Consult a recoil calculator if you don’t believe that.

Take a look at this data - Reloading The .357 Magnum - Reload Ammo - I’ve used it with very good success both in revolvers and lever guns. Granted I don’t load heavy loads but Ive use Accurate #2 for moderate to mild magnums and not had any unburned powder with a 4” barrel. For heavier loads I really like Enforcer. And if I were starting from scratch I’d look to True Blue. On the burn rate chart it’s one of the fastest that allows fairly heavy loads.

Unfortunately most magnum loads are with slower powders so if you’re going for wrist breaking loads you’re probably going to have a good bit of unburned powder with a short barrel.

 

[GypsmJim]

Eons ago I bought a 2" snubby .38. Never had good results as far as accuracy. I talked to buddies who I thought were more knowledgeable than me. Ended up trying a 120 grain boolit, then a 105 grain, as suggested. Still no good.

After a few years of experimenting, the problem was solved. It ended up with a std. 158 GR SWC, pushed by IMR 4227.

That same load worked well in other revolvers as well.

Fast forward and I bought a Chief's Special with a 3" barrel. THAT worked well, even with the old loads that I had been using for 4" and 6" barrels.

Nevertheless, the 158/4227 is reserved for the 2".

 

[TAROMAN]

Power Pistol works best for me.
38 Special +P:
LDEWC 148gr. Power Pistol 5.0gr 870fps
Wolfe short barrel load.

 

[Forrest r]

If top velocity is your goal, the powder that gives highest velocity in a longer barrel will also give the highest velocity in a snubby, regardless of how much powder is "wasted". Most of the time I find unburned powder grains to be more a sign of a weak crimp than insufficient barrel length.

Nothing could be further from the truth^^^^!!!!

Not only powder selection, primer selection for the powder/bullet combo, bullet construction/physical design, oal for the chambers in the cylinders & bullet diameter for those chambers all have huge impacts on velocity.

Then add in a jacketed/plated/lead & lubed or coated bullet into the mix.

I've cast and swaged bullets for the 38spl/357 for decades (5) and used those cartridges more than any other in revolvers. Mostly 4" bbl's or longer with 6" bbl's being the main lengths used/shot. Never gave too much thought about velocities per powder/bullet performance with those bbl lengths.

A couple years back I did testing with 10 different bullets (150gr to 160gr) in a snubnosed 38spl (2"). Used 5 different powders with those 10 bullets with max p+ loads. Only di 5-shot tests with each load/powder combo but the other end of the spectrum was that after 250 loads the same bullets always had the highest velocities.

As much as 70fps difference, that huge!!!!

From there I used 1 bullet and 3 different powders in a test using:
2400 VS H110 VS MP-3000

Used hot!!!! max 357 loads and used a 2 1/2", 4" (2x). 6" (3x). 8" & 10" bbl'd revolvers (10" was a contender).

At the end of the day:
the highest velocities were with th 2400/2 1/2" bbl'd revolver
the 4" bbl's were a wash/ all powders within +/- 10fps of each other
6" bbl's the h110 & mp-300 easily had more velocity (60fps+)
8" bbl, the h110 & mp-300 really started to shine
by the time the 10" bbl tested the 2400 wasn't even in the conversation & I was getting 1600fps out of that bbl with both H110 & MP-300.

I used a 170gr fn cast/coated bullet for the testing

That 2 1/2" bbl's revolver did 1200fps using that 170gr cast/coated fn bullet using a "max" load of 2400.

H110 & mp-300 were not only erratic in that short bbl, but they were also 50fps+ less in velocity.

Perhaps powder pistol, bluedot, AA#7,etc. would be a strong performer in the short bbl's. I was happy with the 170gr/1200fps combo and quit testing.

Pick the wrong bullet and the right powder and you're down 50fps+/- in the snubnosed/short bbl'd revolvers.
Pick the wrong powder and the right bullet and you're down +/- 50fps in the snub nosed revolvers

The 1st thing you should be looking at is bullet selection. Then oal for your revolver and finely powder

 

[BB57]

Without fail someone has indeed posted the fact that the slow burning powders that produce maximum velocity in a long 6” barrel will also produce the highest velocities in a short 2.125” or 3” barrel.

However, there are a few caveats that need to be mentioned:


1) While the difference in velocity between fast and slow powders in a 6” barrel .357 Mag may be as much as 150 fps, the difference in a 2-3” barrel will be down around 25-50 fps. Not enough difference to make a difference.


2) The cost for that extra 25-50 fps in a 2-3” .357 Mag is high:

- at a modest $35 per pound a 21 gr max charge of H110/Win296 costs 10.5 cents per shot. In comparison the cost for a 9 gr max charge of Unique costs 4.5 cents per shot.

- the weight of the powder charge still has mass, whether it is unburned, partially burned, gas, or plasma. And on average it exits the muzzle at about 3 times the muzzle velocity of the bullet.

The numbers for a 3” Model 60 with a 9 gr charge of Unique:

Charge Weight: 9.0 gr Muzzle Velocity: 1250.0 ft/s
Firearm Weight: 1.5 lb Bullet Weight: 125.0 gr

Output Data
Recoil Velocity: 19.2 ft/s Recoil Energy: 8.5 ft•lbs
Recoil Impulse: 0.9 lb•s

Compare those to the numbers for a 3” Model 60 with a 21 gr charge of Win 296. In this case I have reduced the muzzle velocity from 1300 fps to 1250 fps to make it clear it’s not the velocity difference that makes the difference in recoil.

Charge Weight: 21.0 gr Muzzle Velocity: 1250.0 ft/s
Firearm Weight: 1.5 lb Bullet Weight: 125.0 gr

Output Data
Recoil Velocity: 24.7 ft/s Recoil Energy: 14.0 ft•lbs
Recoil Impulse: 1.1 lb•s

Note the increase in recoil energy from 8.5 ft pounds to 14 ft pounds - a 68 percent increase in recoil energy.

Also note the the increase in recoil velocity from 19.2 fps to 24.7 fps - and increase of 29%.

Finally, note the increase in recoil impulse from 1.1 pound seconds to 1.5 pound seconds - a 36 percent increase.

Consequently, even considering the 50 fps increase in velocity (and ignoring the additional increase in recoil due to the increased velocity) the velocity juice most likely isn’t worth the recoil squeeze, especially in a J frame .357 Mag.


3) Those slow burning (by handgun standards) colloidal ball powders like H110/Win 296, put twice as much mass as well as partially burned powder grains through the forcing cone, increasing forcing cone erosion.


4) Those colloidal ball powders produce significantly more unburned powder grains than medium speed flake powders like Unique, and the burned grains are much, much larger in size. During a reload, grains of powder left in the cylinder or barrel can fall back down onto the front face of the ejector star. They are large enough to create space between the ejector star and the cylinder face. That will prevent the cylinder and crane from going back into the frame. Clearing that jam requires dumping the ammunition you just loaded, then pressing down the ejector rod while you sweep the offending grain(s) off the ejector star and or cylinder face if they stuck there, and then starting over with the reload.

 

[Model19man]

When I first started reloading in the 1980's I was all about getting the maximum velocity from my 357 Magnums. I went through several containers of W296 (same as H110). The indoor range would clear out when I showed up because my 2 1/2" revolver shot enormous fireballs when it went off.

Thank goodness I outgrew that phase.

 

[Rogeronimo]

I use 3N38. May not be the fastest, but no massive fireball, either. 3" L-frame.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

Speer #14 shows that the slower powders still get higher velocity than faster powders in a short (2.5") barrel.

I like Power Pistol for "not quite max loads" in my J-frame but it's flashy.

CFE-P is the better choice to minimize flash but still get improved performance over 38 Spcl +P loads but not full tilt 357 Magnum loads.

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[Warren Sear]

Speer #14 shows that the slower powders still get higher velocity than faster powders in a short (2.5") barrel.

That right there.

 

[BrBa]

HS-6 and a magnum primer works well in my 1-7/8" LCR .38 +P and 3" magnums. I load up to around 30000 psi for .357, so it's not full power. I didn't see a need to go faster than 1300 fps with a 125 gr Barnes TAC-XP from a 3" barrel.

 

[gwpercle]

I have a Speer Reloading Manual ( #8 ) that has a section ...
357 Magnum - 2 1/2" barrel -
The top powder for velocity was Norma - N1020
followed by - 2400 (w/ magnum primers) and of course ...
was good opld Unique ... actually Unique was right up there with N1020 and 2400 ... being on average 50 - 60 fps slower in max loads .

Unique would not be a bad choice and probably Accurate Arms ( AA) #5 or maybe AA #7 might be a good candidate .
Gary

 

[Nightowl]

Has anyone worked with Longshot in .38 or .357 cases?

 

[jarbo]

This is all really good info and thank you! My goal was to achieve the best round for a woods load. Small to medium black bear and cougars where I live. I have made up a good 180 grain JHP with H110 that has never left any unburnt powder and has seemed to work well on test I have done. The 125 grain, more self defense round, inhave found works well with unique. I have a ton of Unique so I think I will use that for most 357 short barrel handgun rounds except 180 grain bullets, and save the H110 for the lever rifle 357 i plan to buy.

 

[Nevada Ed]

I found that a lead 158 gr out of my M49 snub nose got the highest FPS
with Blue Dot Ppowder, but
I only fired three of the five loads, when I saw the crony numbers !!

With this powder a HEAVY crimp gets the MOST out of this powder.
I had to back off on the amount of powder to get a factory fps loading.

 

[Model 15-4ever]

I went through this recently developing a load with 125-135 grain JHPs for a new Colt Viper with 3" barrel. I haven't loaded .357 Magnum in decades, and back then I shot healthy charges of Blue Dot out of 4-6" barrels.

In the end I settled on Win 231. Not the highest velocity, but as earlier pointed out, far less muzzle blast than slower burning propellants. Better for defensive use.

Power Pistol was the worst muzzle blast and flash. Frankly, I would not use that in any revolver for any purpose. Accurate #7 was not far behind. Blue Dot and Longshot were loud as hell. HS-6 was not bad, requires a magnum primer and a firm crimp. Accurate No.5 gave disappointingly low velocities before pressure signs arose.

Winchester 231 had the most consistent velocity, and also the most accuracy. Not as loud as the others, and much lower muzzle flash to blind you in reduced lighting. Also won't set your house or clothing on fire at close range.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

Has anyone worked with Longshot in .38 or .357 cases?

In most cartridges L-S & P-P provide "virtually" the same velocity per charge weight & I consider them interchangeable, within reason, but L-S has less flash.

I used P-P a lot until it became unavailable years ago & then I switched to L-S.

Once P-P became available again I stocked up & now I keep a good supply of both on-hand.

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