Beware of Phony End Labels, Lets Vote!!!

[SW Model 19 Guy]

Gentlemen, keep in mind Smith and Wesson never intended for the boxes to be collectors items. They were merely a vessel to ship guns in and allow S&W, the distributor, and the gun dealer to stack them in a why that allowed for easy identification. Whether S&W used machine printing or hand printing. Or whether some at S&W wrote "BL" or "B" for blue finish really didn't matter to them. It seems to me S&W could have done all of this interchangeably and at any time. This makes Identifying the fakes all that more difficult. Going forward S&W could put holograms on there labels making forgeries much harder and much more expensive to make.

 

[jjbrewst1]

This is the First I have seen of the computer generated labels.Yet another reason to stay away from The 80's Guns.

Alex.

Stop! Lol. If I were you I would stay away from them 44's. Dying market. .

 

[g8rb8]

The answer is YES. On a very limited bases, and only on guns I could positively date to 1981. I've never seen a handwritten label on a one-piece box newer than this, but I suppose it's possible they exist.

I was reading a post by a new member this morning who just purchase a 439 with a link to the winning auction below. To my eye this looks like a fake label also (?). I don't follow the semi-autos much. What do you guys say?

On a second look, I stand corrected. The label looks original.

SMITH & WESSON 439 4" HI POLISH NICKEL AS NEW IN B : Semi Auto Pistols at GunBroker.com

 

[haris1]

I was reading a post by a new member this morning who just purchase a 439 with a link to the winning auction below. To my eye this looks like a fake label also (?). I don't follow the semi-autos much. What do you guys say?

SMITH & WESSON 439 4" HI POLISH NICKEL AS NEW IN B : Semi Auto Pistols at GunBroker.com

That label looks correct and by its serial number its 1982, one year after the Kernel mentioned handwritten labels on the hinged box, but it certainly looks correct

 

[g8rb8]

That label looks correct and by its serial number its 1982, one year after the Kernel mentioned handwritten labels on the hinged box, but it certainly looks correct

Haris1,
I stand corrected. You are correct. The end label on the 439 in question looks correct.

 

[Mark6005]

Beware of eBay boxes and there's a bunch of them out there

 

[Kernel Crittenden]

Beware of eBay boxes and there's a bunch of them out there

Why would anyone fake an eBay box? There's no gun in it. The whole reason to create a fake label is to make it look like the box matches the gun. With no gun, you'd have no idea what to put on a fake label.

 

[mauser9]

Oh My God what some won't do to try and make a dishonest buck. If ya think this is bad check out faked German Mausers with phony stampings.

 

[wrhk33]

I have no clue on that kind of stuff, I can't spot a fake. Since I'm new to these guns I look at one for sale and box or not I decide if it is what I want to pay. I never add more for the box and that's a good thing since they all look real to me. One time I bought a used 624 at a shop. They put it in a box that had a label that said 696. I told them but they said that's all they had so I took it.

 

[Sevens]

Haha, the great debate on whether there is "value" to the original box or not...

I couldn't keep count of the folks who grumble about NEVER placing any value on a silly old box and how it means little or nothing to them and that they wouldn't pay a penny more for it.

That is all well and good. Every single one of us will go forward our OWN way, whatever way that may be, for better or for worse.

However, that does NOT change what happens in the market and in the real world. A gun -inside- it's box is a different animal than one EXACTLY like it and lacking the box. Maybe not to buyer X, but by and large, in the market, it certainly does.

And it will continue to do so no matter how much that annoys the folks who believe it's nutty that some of us enjoy the cache of the old-school box.

 

[TDC]

Jeesh!!!! How far do some people want to go with this!!!

Does any restoration effort or upgrade come under this "label correct" scrutiny? As a long time S&W collector, who incidentally has never used one of these labels, I see no vital issue with doing so as long as that label isn't represented as being original....

How about restored early presentation cases? They deteriorate simply over time. Most need restoration or soon will or the owner will be left with an unfrocked plastic or bare styrofoam liner. I'm about to send several to Joe Cebul for restoration. These liners house new and unfired handguns of which I'm the original owner. Does anyone here actually believe that great restoration work such as Joe's diminishes the collector value of these guns? I don't!!

How about unnumbered but period correct OEM grip changes or expert grip refinishing for repair. Will that constitute a "forgery" or "counterfeit"? How would anyone actually know and why would they care if the grips weren't the original ones shipped with the gun?

These end labels were never intended to be a "collector item". They, like most printed matter, are vulnerable to the elements. The glue that holds them to the box or cardboard can often become ineffective and cause the label to become lost. They also can become torn or stain very easily. I believe I'd rather see an aftermarket label placed on those original boxes than nothing....

Protect those original labels, guys! They are about to double the current value of your boxed S&W's!!....

Flame suit on!

 

[ladder13]

Jeesh!!!! How far do some people want to go with this!!!

Does any restoration effort or upgrade come under this "label correct" scrutiny? As a long time S&W collector, who incidentally has never used one of these labels, I see no vital issue with doing so as long as that label isn't represented as being original....

How about restored early presentation cases? They deteriorate simply over time. Most need restoration or soon will or the owner will be left with an unfrocked plastic or bare styrofoam liner. I'm about to send several to Joe Cebul for restoration. These liners house new and unfired handguns of which I'm the original owner. Does anyone here actually believe that great restoration work such as Joe's diminishes the collector value of these guns? I don't!!

How about unnumbered but period correct OEM grip changes or expert grip refinishing for repair. Will that constitute a "forgery" or "counterfeit"? How would anyone actually know and why would they care if the grips weren't the original ones shipped with the gun?

These end labels were never intended to be a "collector item". They, like most printed matter, are vulnerable to the elements. The glue that holds them to the box or cardboard can often become ineffective and cause the label to become lost. They also can become torn or stain very easily. I believe I'd rather see an aftermarket label placed on those original boxes than nothing....

Protect those original labels, guys! They are about to double the current value of your boxed S&W's!!....

Flame suit on!

Agreed. There's a reason for a "accessories" section on this forum. Tool kits, boxes, wax paper, even those black thingies where the trigger guard sits. Original to the gun?
Then they go on GB as with big "stories"

 

[Slufstuff]

Wow, I did miserably on the test. The only two that I honestly would have had doubts about were the last two, but only because the printing on the labels looked kind of off. The machine printed labels would have all fooled me. Scary stuff if you like the NIB pistols.

 

[haris1]

I didnt see that- but now that you point it out. There is no question that whoever made up this label had DECEPTION in mind!!!!

SMITH & WESSON STAINLESS 65-3 3" 357 EXC in BOX : Revolvers at GunBroker.com

Fellow members: When S&W went to hinged one piece boxed, were they still using hand written labels???

That phony 3 dollar bill inspector mark is on lots of his guns.
That inspector sure works(worked) his butt of there

Auctions below from this guy and with inspector 28-1

484051403 phony insp mark 28-1 model 66
483137395(phony inspector mark 28-1) model 36

482983724(phony inspector mark) model 67
482878420 (model 63 also with phony insp stamp 28-1
487660161- (worst phony ever and with inspector 28-1!!!

 

[ibewbull]

I will not let a box effect my choice to buy.
I just assume they are all fake now.
I doubt the sellers know sometimes.

 

[Kernel Crittenden]

The penmanship on a real S&W label looks NOTHING like those shown in post #57. A real S&W label has a quick scrawl, indicative of individuals writing hundreds, if not thousands, of labels per day. They were done QUICKLY. In a rush.

They didn't have time to do the precise letters and numbers seen on these boxes, which look more like careful deliberate script learned in a high school drafting class (which is some indication of the probable age of the writer -- 50+).

 

[haris1]

PHONY Labels-lets have fun with the seller!!!

Guys,
Its now time to have fun with phony label man!!!
lets all agree to send him messages like"are u sure the labels real??" to see what he says!!Then we can post them here!!!

 

[Gunhacker]

Why would anyone fake an eBay box? There's no gun in it. The whole reason to create a fake label is to make it look like the box matches the gun. With no gun, you'd have no idea what to put on a fake label.

Anything commanding significant dollars is a candidate for fakery... counterfeit Colt boxes, and all the trimmings that came with a gun are especially troubling because whoever it is that is producing and selling them has really gotten them so close to the originals that even Colt some seasoned collectors are having difficulty spotting them.

I was hoping that the same would not invade the S&W world, but what with the prices people are willing to pay for boxes, tools, and papaerwork, it was only a matter of time.

 

[Kernel Crittenden]

Anything commanding significant dollars is a candidate for fakery....

So a seller on eBay takes an empty box, removes the REAL label somehow, and puts a FAKE label on? Does that make sense?

How would he know what to put on the fake label? Remember, the box is empty, there is no gun at this point to match up to a fake label. Does he just make a random guess, and hopes he gets lucky?

The ideal that unscrupulous sellers are selling faked modern S&W boxes on eBay is ridiculous.

Think it thru......

 

[dant]

if NO -ONE "wanted or felt the need" for any , boxes or labels and they did not buy them, the market would stop, I sold boxes many years ago BEFORE the advent of e-bay and "on line auctions" and we sold tons of them, cleaned out attics and gun shops for them and took them to gun shows back in the 60's..........if NO ONE wanted them I would have never sold a single one, and now today , they are worth MORE , much more and folks will pay about anything to get them,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
yes, the very same folks who complain and make comments as to wether they are real or not........:0



and YES we got MANY boxes and rolls of factory end labels from the shops who did warranty repair for both Smith and Colt, such as Cherry Corners gunsmithing, Bud sold us all of the "spare" NOS he had in the shop back then...so one cannot say they are ALL "fake".............I still have a few "unfolded" one piece boxes (flattened out, never put into use) , and NO they are NOT for sale...............
and any TRUE 'collector" KNOWS the difference of a real and a fake ,by the era, by the printing, even the ink that was used......................its when one does it to "perpetrate a hoax or pull off a scam" then shame on them ,,,,,,caveat emptor baby