Billies & saps

[seagill]

Here in FL a CCW allows one to carry knives and billies as well as a firearm. I am considering getting a leather billy club or a sap, aka slapper for situations that don't justify lethal force. I am leaning toward a 14 oz billy, it looks like it would be more effective. But I read that people have been killed by them (defeats the non-lethal use). Also the sap is flat and would be easier to conceal, although to get the same weight I need to get an 11" model. Any retired LEOs out there have any experience with these weapons? Opinions? Thanks.

 

[oldman45]

In order to use such, you have to be very close to the person and basically have some sort of control over that person.

I am sure there are instances where a person could legally use one but I cannot imagine how it would be.

An option to deadly force is common sense. If it is a self defense situation, I do not want my foe to be be that close to me. If I am about to be attacked, I do not want something I have to hit the attacker over the head with.

Billy clubs and saps work fine in getting the attention of one that is on the floor and still resisting. They work well when there is a mental subject resisting and other officers are present.

Use what you want but those would be the last things I would want. A gun is an option available that does not have to be used. Carrying a blackjack is not an option for me.

My great grandfather and my grandfather carried one all the time but they carried their guns as well. Since I was not able to discuss the use of force on people with them I cannot say how or when they used their items.

 

[Frailer]

When I was in Kosovo in 2000 I witnessed how the act of extending an ASP baton can quickly calm someone who is getting out of control but doesn't need shooting. I ordered one immediately.

Mine is a 16" model with a pebbled steel (not foam) grip that has since been discontinued. I keep it in the driver's side door compartment of my vehicle, but I'll occasionally carry it in a nylon holster that was designed for a mini mag light, which I slip on my belt backwards and then flip it over so that it's IWB.

But be aware that these are "non-lethal" only if you don't whack somebody upside the head with them.

 

[cp1969]

It seems to me that by producing a weapon, such as a sap, if your adversary is armed, he may decide to counter your weapon with a gun, if he has one.

At that point, you are at a big disadvantage in getting your own gun into action.

 

[Mediumbore]

The traditional law enforcement uses of the sap were two-fold. The "edge" of the sap was used against muscle much like a baton to stun the nerve or cause the limb to numb or collapse. The flat of the sap was applied to the head or neck to affect consciousness. Unfortunately, concussions or brain trauma could result from blows to the head so they fell out of use. I tend to agree with Frailer, an ASP is probably a better choice at this point. Remember, an ASP is a pain compliance tool and, when used properly, is applied to muscles and nerve bundles to temporarily disable limbs through numbing, etc.

 

[kauphycup]

In Florida you can also carry MACE (the good stuff) which gives you separation not afforded by a "billy" or what we used to call a "slap stick".

Having been there with both instruments, I would prefer the MACE to the "slapper" even though a blow to the shin, thigh or kneecap will stop most people in their tracks I'm much to old now to want to dance with a "bully".

You also have to remember your objective is to escape the threat unlike a police officer who must engage and neutralize the threat.

 

[cmort666]

In Ohio, it's a Concealed HANDGUN License, and NOTHING else, so it's not even an option.

 

[Pointblank2U]

The police seldom use anything besides pepperspray and tasers these days, but back in the day we used saps, sap gloves, convoys and billies. Later on I became a PR-24 baton instructor and a Kubaton instructor. All these close-in weapons require formal instruction and a lot of practice. These days I think a good pistol and a small cannister of pepperspray is the way to go.

 

[The Last Standing Knight]

The police seldom use anything besides pepperspray and tasers these days, but back in the day we used saps, sap gloves, convoys and billies. Later on I became a PR-24 baton instructor and a Kubaton instructor. All these close-in weapons require formal instruction and a lot of practice. These days I think a good pistol and a small cannister of pepperspray is the way to go.

I have never heard of a "Convoy." What is it?

 

[REM 3200]

Here in FL a CCW allows one to carry knives and billies as well as a firearm. I am considering getting a leather billy club or a sap, aka slapper for situations that don't justify lethal force. I am leaning toward a 14 oz billy, it looks like it would be more effective. But I read that people have been killed by them (defeats the non-lethal use). Also the sap is flat and would be easier to conceal, although to get the same weight I need to get an 11" model. Any retired LEOs out there have any experience with these weapons? Opinions? Thanks.

Not a LEO, but it seem to me that is like bringing a knife to a gunfight.

 

[Steve in Vermont]

Agree with Badge130

Blackjacks, etc require a lot of training and you need to be very close for them to be effective. Other than a concealed carry (or in addition to) I would recommend a good quality mace (by 2 and practice with one to see how it works, range, etc) and at night, if you have the physical ability, a heavy duty aluminum flashlights also works well. When I was in uniform these two items were the most commonly used (it was before Tasers). And to the average civilian, it just sounds better ("Golly, I certainly didn't want to hurt anyone so I sprayed him with mace..or hit him with my flashlight" rather than "I smacked him upside the head with my blackjack". More PC but usually just as effective.

 

[stantheman86]

Go with good, strong LE only OC spray........I had to take a face full of this stuff when I was a Juvenile Corrections officer, during my non-lethal force training and this stuff will stop you in your tracks. I'm not talking about the cheap stuff you buy at the drug store, the strong stuff in the red cans....

Forget the police slaps, blackjacks, jockey whips, riding crops........this isn't 1923 and the days are gone when you would just knock a mugger on the side of the head with a club and leave him there.....now the guy will call the police himself and say you assaulted him for asking what time it was......

Use the mace to blind the attacker(s) so you can assess the situation, get away, call the police......hitting people with objects is just asking for trouble and could be called deadly force........if some drunk guy is talking smack to you in the Wal Mart parking lot, and he's unarmed, and you pull an ASP and crack his skull with it, you could be in serious trouble.......... I like OC spray to carry for times when pulling a gun is not warranted, if I'm walking to my car in a dark parking lot, sometimes a shady character may be nearby....I recently had a guy approach me at a Wal Mart, and ask me if my car was "the original color or repainted" this guy set my Spidey senses off, and I think the fact that I was using my hand to "check" that bulge under my waistband the whole time he was talking to me, told him to go find someone else to bother, whether he was harmless or not, he walked away.............you can hold the mace in your "off hand" without breaking the law, keeping the strong hand ready to draw your gun if need be....... but you can't draw your gun and walk around with it.

 

[seagill]

Thanks for the info

Just looking into different options. I already carry OC spray, Fox brand rated at 5.3 million scoville heat units. The difference between SHU and capsasian Percentage has me a little confused. Is MACE much better?
I got to thinking that not only do I need to protect myself, but my gun as well. Maybe just getting overly paranoid.
There was a recent news story in which a CCW holder was punched in the face while out jogging at midnight by an 18 year old. Shot him 8 times, including twice in the back! Police called the shooting justified and pursued no charges. I still wouldn't want to be that guy. I'll just stick with the OC spray and my 908.

 

[Rule 303]

In Texas you can carry a 1911, Glock or what ever, if you have a CHL, but you can not carry a Club, ie blackjack, sap, night stick, etc....

I carry OC and a cell phone in addition to my revolver/pistol.

Rule 303

 

[Class III]

Some good advice is listed above. You want to keep as much distance between yourself and your attacker as possible. Physical confrontation is almost always a bad outcome for all parties involved. In some jurisdictions an ASP, billy club, sap gloves, brass/aluminum knucks will get you in BIG trouble. Example: Kentucky issues a weapons permit. Tennessee issues a handgun permit. When friends drive down from Kentucky to Tennessee they have to leave all weapons except their handguns at home if carrying under the provisions of the reciprocal agreement between TN and KY. But, I bet there is not a LEO out there that would not advise all drivers to carry a flathead and phillipshead screwdriver and an 4 to 6 cell mag light in the car in case of a roadside breakdown.

Have faith in the Fox 5.3 that you have. If you want to see what it will do follow the link below. It shows some FOOL letting his buddy spray him in the face with Fox 5.3. Be forewarned that the FOOL drops a few "F" bombs so you'll want to get the kids out of earshot if you decide to view the video. YouTube - Pepper Spray FOX 5.3 million SHU!! If you are carrying any type of chemical defensive spray you need to get a few packs of Sudecon decontaminant wipes. The fool in the vidoe didn't have any Sudecon handy, only a bucket of water. Yeah, that worked out well.

Class III

 

[Charles]

I'm not so sure it's a bad idea... I've been in a couple of situations where I didn't want to pull a revolver, but physical interactions were unfortunately necessary. If you're dealing with an unarmed belligerent drunk who's bigger and stronger than you, a sap or some such could sure come in handy. OC's probably better in general, though.

 

[jimmyj]

What is a Convoy?
a 16oz round piece of lead mounted on a steel spring handle covered in black leather.
Designed for close in work which will get a suspect's attention in a heartbeat.
Part of the equipment along with jordan river belt, holster, cartridge 12 round loops, and large caliber revolver.

 

[kennyb]

The police seldom use anything besides pepperspray and tasers these days, but back in the day we used saps, sap gloves, convoys and billies. Later on I became a PR-24 baton instructor and a Kubaton instructor. All these close-in weapons require formal instruction and a lot of practice. These days I think a good pistol and a small cannister of pepperspray is the way to go.

plus one....back in the day i carried a blackjack (still have it)it's not very effective and can be dangerous

 

[38-44HD45]

As another poster has indicated, here in TX all such weapons are prohibited, CHL or not. "Less lethal" weapons are still lethal, and if lethal force is justified, the pistol works better, and from farther away.

As I discussed on another thread, after carrying OC for about 14 years, I've even stopped doing that.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/concealed-carry-self-defense/174534-what-else-should-i-carry.html

 

[PetersCustomLeather]

By usiing a sap or billy on somebody, or showing it, you might just get that somebody to pull their concealed gun and end your reign of terror!


Seriously, I'd forget the close range slapper. Unless you're very well trained, it could also be taken away from you and used against you.

IMHO... YMMV