Blown 45 ACP brass
- Thread starter Magload
- Start date
Just another opinion:
Over pressure, yes
Double charge, no
I'm not a titegroup hater, I just have a healthy respect for that powder. It has an extremely high short start pressure. Any mistakes and the user pays, it's very unforgiving.
Sorta makes ya wonder about bullet setback.
I'm just glad you didn't get hurt real bad. It could of been allot worse.
Over pressure, yes
Double charge, no
I'm not a titegroup hater, I just have a healthy respect for that powder. It has an extremely high short start pressure. Any mistakes and the user pays, it's very unforgiving.
Sorta makes ya wonder about bullet setback.
I'm just glad you didn't get hurt real bad. It could of been allot worse.
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I started out two years ago and TiteGroup was the only powder I could find so being new to handgun loading, I started stuffing shotgun shells in the early 60s, I have been very careful with the powder. If i think there is any chance I got a double load I dump the charge and restart it in station 2 of my 550. it can happen it a problem occurs on station one. I am capably of making mistakes but I don't think I did. We will never know.
venomballistics
Member
looks like another one I've seen in a Sig
Eerily similar load of TG + Winchester brass and a plated 200G pill
AveragEd
Member
Well, some do. Remington primers are brass-colored so when you encounter a case with an R-P headstamp and a nickle-plated primer, you know it can't be once-fired. A friend once watched another club member shoot a box of .300 Remington Short Action Ultra Magnum shells and since I had told him that new brass for that caliber is scarce and salty when you find it and the shooter didn't keep it, my friend assumed the shooter didn't reload and kept it for me. Several years later, I opened the bag with intentions of using it but when I spotted the nickle-plated primers, into the trash it went.
Not to beat that dead horse, but buying new brass eliminates any concerns like that. The only time I have accepted brass from someone else is .223 REM cases from a friend who buys R-P ammunition for his AR-15, does not reload and keeps his brass for me.
Ed
4barrel
Member
Well good buddy-you finally got the pirate look. You probably have some brass & powder in your face. When the web blew out the pressure came back through the slide & frame. Measure the block safety in the rear of the slide that the hammer hits. Bullet setback from not enough crimp like above is all that comes to mind. I have had 38s in autos do this but not 45s. When this happens it could blow the magazine out-break the stocks-or both & hurts the hand. Most of the time the gun is ok. Been there -done that.
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Yes the mag took the damage and the two round that were in it. Busted the floor plate but the grips survived. I don't think there is any brass in my face did have a small piece of something in my right thumb. I am now thinking bullet set back also. I can press the remaining 10 against the bench and can't move them but that doesn't mean a couple rounds wasn't bad. I am going to shoot the last 10 and run the digital calibers on each bullet before firing it. This could explain why i was getting flyers way off my benchrest groups at 20yds. I was getting 3 rounds in a inch group and 2 rounds 3" off. Just wrote it off to poor eyes and open sights.
scooter123
Member
A couple of thoughts.
1) Check your firing pin for free movement. It's possible that you had the firing pin "stick" in the extended position and that can cause an OOB firing event. BTW, it can also turn a 1911 into a Machine Pistol and it's one reason I do NOT like the series 80 1911. On a series 70 pulling the firing pin is really really easy, so cleaning that area is easy peasy. On the series 80 you have to deal with the firing pin block and my understanding is that dealing with that can be a bit fiddly.
2) What is the Standard Deviation for Charge Weight with Titegroup in your powder measure? If you don't know that I would suggest that you do some reading on Statistical Process Controls and Capability Studies. Do that and you will learn that this is an ideal method for determining exactly how consistent your thrown charges are and whether you can "throw and go" or need to hand weigh and adjust each thrown charge. BTW, in my RCBS Competition Powder Measure the SD for Unique is 0.17 grain and for H110 it's 0.025 grain.
1) Check your firing pin for free movement. It's possible that you had the firing pin "stick" in the extended position and that can cause an OOB firing event. BTW, it can also turn a 1911 into a Machine Pistol and it's one reason I do NOT like the series 80 1911. On a series 70 pulling the firing pin is really really easy, so cleaning that area is easy peasy. On the series 80 you have to deal with the firing pin block and my understanding is that dealing with that can be a bit fiddly.
2) What is the Standard Deviation for Charge Weight with Titegroup in your powder measure? If you don't know that I would suggest that you do some reading on Statistical Process Controls and Capability Studies. Do that and you will learn that this is an ideal method for determining exactly how consistent your thrown charges are and whether you can "throw and go" or need to hand weigh and adjust each thrown charge. BTW, in my RCBS Competition Powder Measure the SD for Unique is 0.17 grain and for H110 it's 0.025 grain.
My Gold Cup is a model 70. I have the gun apart as I am getting ready to drill and tap 10 holes in the dusk cover for the new scope mount. The firing pin moves properly. I would expect it it was sticking out it would have caused a slam fire but I was aiming that shot and squeezing the trigger. I am not good at this math stuff like you but that would really be good data to have. With all the drops from my 550 some were a tenth of a grain high but these loads were 0.4gr below Max and I had tested Max loads with the chrono all ready. I am betting on bullet setback.
ontargetagain
Member
Just when I was getting comfortable after 2 years of reloading I see this.........YIKES! I am truly glad that the outcome was not worse on you, I am sure it is still a bit traumatic when you think about it.
Thanks for sharing your experience, it is a good reminder for me and the comments of how and what could have happened are interesting. I like Titegroup, I know this could happen with any powder. I hope to hear you have not lost your touch on the range and things get back in the groove in a timely manner for you. Again thanks for sharing as this is a good lesson for me.
Karl
Thanks for sharing your experience, it is a good reminder for me and the comments of how and what could have happened are interesting. I like Titegroup, I know this could happen with any powder. I hope to hear you have not lost your touch on the range and things get back in the groove in a timely manner for you. Again thanks for sharing as this is a good lesson for me.
Karl
ArchAngelCD
Moderator, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
Is it possible you had a round with bullet setback that raised he pressures to do that? I just don't trust that powder, it's known to spike pressures when given the slightest reason to do so.
76Y40
Member
Thanks Magload for posting your experience.
Glad you're okay!
Glad you're okay!
I don't know if this is true or not....
....but it seems lately that some brass isn't fit for reloading. I've thrown out some cracked brass that was like tin foil. It wouldn't surprise me if "one shot brass" was a new way to cut corners and encourage the buying of new ammo.
....but it seems lately that some brass isn't fit for reloading. I've thrown out some cracked brass that was like tin foil. It wouldn't surprise me if "one shot brass" was a new way to cut corners and encourage the buying of new ammo.
How many reloaders.......
How many reloaders here DON'T use found range brass? I've bought new brass before. But a major saving point is using brass that I've picked up after someone else shot it. Semi auto brass flies away and .357 magnum is scarce and expensive. I do believe, however, that I will be inspecting found brass closer from now on.
How many reloaders here DON'T use found range brass? I've bought new brass before. But a major saving point is using brass that I've picked up after someone else shot it. Semi auto brass flies away and .357 magnum is scarce and expensive. I do believe, however, that I will be inspecting found brass closer from now on.
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AveragEd
Member
Here's one. If someone else thought it wasn't worth keeping for themselves or a friend, why should I?
Sure, there are range slobs who don't mind littering their club's grounds with their once-fired cases but when I can buy new Starline .45ACP brass for under $22 per hundred and even less when it is on sale, which happens now and then, why would I take a chance on used brass? Especially when you consider how long handgun brass will last when loaded sensibly. MidwayUSA had Remington .45ACP brass on sale for something like $80 per box of 500 pieces last fall. I had an unopened 500-count box on hand but bought two more boxes so I won't need any brass for that caliber for a long time.
It sounds like Magload's problem may have been caused by something other than his brass but I'm sorry, it's not a chance I will take for that amount of money, especially when you consider what a destroyed gun, injury pain and suffering and lost time from work costs.
Ed
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There are times when i use SAAMI max loads in my guns, but normally i end up finding a sweet spot somewhere slightly below maximum. And i use titegroup in several calibers...38 Special,9mm,45 acp. You mentioned that you chose to use the max load listed...5.7 grs...and are using a powder measure to dispense maximum load charges. Powder measures do a pretty good job of regulating consistent charges but there can be deviations in charges,a little higher,alittle lower,etc then throw in the possibility of powder bridging in the measure. and oh yeah the bullet setback thing. I'm not criticizing your reloading ability or equipment but the fact is you chose to work right on the edge of max pressure so any of these things or a combination of them and you are over pressure. Back off a half grain or so...give yourself a little room for error....we all make em....Mike
AveragEd
Member
Good point. I only load rifle ammo and then only that I will use for hunting to near maximum levels; handgun ammo is loaded as light as possible as paper isn't difficult to perforate. And for handgun hunting, I use factory loads - for perhaps a half-dozen rounds a year, why bother setting up my equipment for a different recipe? I bought two boxes of Hornady 240-grain XTP shells several years ago and haven't used one of them yet.
Ed
Ed
Over pressure with titegroup and you get blown cases.
Double charge with titegroup and you get pieces and parts.
Interestingly enough undercharge with titegroup in certain calibers/bullet combo's you get pieces and parts.
I've reloaded for the 45acp since 1990 loading and shooting countless 1,000's of rounds in 10+ firearms chambered in that caliber. I couldn't even begin to think of how much range brass I've loaded and still load to this day. Never had a problem with any of it but then again I don't load any of it to p+ levels.
A little bullet 101:
Everyone looks at things differently. Myself, I tend to look at reloading from the bottom up not the top down. While most reloaders look at the listed oal & the bullet weight to find a load. I look at the bullet weight and the seating depth of the bullet.
Typical bullet oal in a semi-auto has the shoulder of the bullet around 20/1000th's above the end of the case.Then that oal is tested for function. What's more important is how far the bullet is seated in the case and what is used to have that case except the bullet. Pictures are worth a 1000 words. 2 different 124gr bullets along with an expander plug.
Same bullet weight, if you use the same powder charge say 4.3gr of titegroup. Which bullet do you think will have a higher pressure??? Same oal, same bullet weight. What's more important in that picture is picture of the expander plug.
Is that a typical expander plug??? No
Does the op's expander plug look like the 1 in the picture??? No
Should the op's expander plug look like the 1 in the picture??? Yes
A factory expander plug next to a custom expander plug. The factory expanders are designed to put neck tension on the shorter harder jacketed bullets. The llloooonnnnggggggeeerrrrrr expander plugs with the step that flares the mouth of the case are designed to protect the base of the bullet and start the bullet straight. Which plug do you think would work better with the softer plated lead bullets the op is using/loading???
What I use for cast/coated bullets in the 45acp.
Why all the talk about expanders???
Because the op is using a plated bullet that is soft. They are made from swaged lead, not cast. Swaging bullets can only be done with soft lead, anything much over 10bhn will ruin swaging dies. And typical swaged bullets are in the 7bhn to 8 bhn range. So now you have a soft bullet that is easily manipulated/reshaped going in a case that has had a expander that was designed for hard jacketed bullets. It doesn't take much to reduce the neck tension on a bullet.
At the end of the day a soft swaged bullet was loaded in a case that was prepped for jacketed bullets. Then a healthy charge of an extremely unforgiving powder was used for a load.
Just something to think about, the right tool for the job.
Double charge with titegroup and you get pieces and parts.
Interestingly enough undercharge with titegroup in certain calibers/bullet combo's you get pieces and parts.
I've reloaded for the 45acp since 1990 loading and shooting countless 1,000's of rounds in 10+ firearms chambered in that caliber. I couldn't even begin to think of how much range brass I've loaded and still load to this day. Never had a problem with any of it but then again I don't load any of it to p+ levels.
A little bullet 101:
Everyone looks at things differently. Myself, I tend to look at reloading from the bottom up not the top down. While most reloaders look at the listed oal & the bullet weight to find a load. I look at the bullet weight and the seating depth of the bullet.
Typical bullet oal in a semi-auto has the shoulder of the bullet around 20/1000th's above the end of the case.Then that oal is tested for function. What's more important is how far the bullet is seated in the case and what is used to have that case except the bullet. Pictures are worth a 1000 words. 2 different 124gr bullets along with an expander plug.
Same bullet weight, if you use the same powder charge say 4.3gr of titegroup. Which bullet do you think will have a higher pressure??? Same oal, same bullet weight. What's more important in that picture is picture of the expander plug.
Is that a typical expander plug??? No
Does the op's expander plug look like the 1 in the picture??? No
Should the op's expander plug look like the 1 in the picture??? Yes
A factory expander plug next to a custom expander plug. The factory expanders are designed to put neck tension on the shorter harder jacketed bullets. The llloooonnnnggggggeeerrrrrr expander plugs with the step that flares the mouth of the case are designed to protect the base of the bullet and start the bullet straight. Which plug do you think would work better with the softer plated lead bullets the op is using/loading???
What I use for cast/coated bullets in the 45acp.
Why all the talk about expanders???
Because the op is using a plated bullet that is soft. They are made from swaged lead, not cast. Swaging bullets can only be done with soft lead, anything much over 10bhn will ruin swaging dies. And typical swaged bullets are in the 7bhn to 8 bhn range. So now you have a soft bullet that is easily manipulated/reshaped going in a case that has had a expander that was designed for hard jacketed bullets. It doesn't take much to reduce the neck tension on a bullet.
At the end of the day a soft swaged bullet was loaded in a case that was prepped for jacketed bullets. Then a healthy charge of an extremely unforgiving powder was used for a load.
Just something to think about, the right tool for the job.
Yep, another Kboom thread. Kinda like diagnosing car problems on the InterWeb.
It is either electrical. mechanical or fuel related.
It is either electrical. mechanical or fuel related.
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