Boston bomber... A gun violence victim???

[Capt.Jim]

An event held yesterday in Concord, New Hampshire by out-of-state supporters of Mike Bloomberg's Mayors Against Illegal Guns movement turned ugly when a 2nd Amendment activist (who was protesting the event) was arrested. But buried in the Union Leader story was an arguably more interesting nugget.

During the rally, supporters of the Mayors Against Illegal Guns read the names of those "killed with guns" since the Dec. 14 Newtown shootings — and Boston bomber Tamerlan Tsarnaev's name was memorialized among the names of the dead. (Tsarnaev, of course, was killed in a police shootout.)

UPDATE: Apology issued for naming of Boston bomber as a victim of gun violence at Concord rally

CONCORD - The organizers of the Mayors Against Illegal Guns campaign on Wednesday apologized for including Boston Marathon bombing suspect Tamerlan Tsarnaev among a list of shooting victims' names that were read during a demonstration in Concord on Tuesday.

The apology came after several groups, including the New Hampshire Republican Party, blasted the Mayors Against Illegal Guns campaign for included his name.



Read more: Boston Bomber Memorialized as Gun Victim by Bloomberg's Anti-Gun Movement - Fox Nation

 

[cmort666]

They're not sorry at all.

They hate lawful gun owners FAR more than they'll EVER hate Islamist terrorists.

Their models of society aren't all that far apart.

One wants an unaccountable theocratic ruling class, the other an unaccountable secular ruling class. Either way, they're both about absolute governmental control of the populace.

 

[jlrhiner]

The story is always better if you don't concentrate on the details. He was probably listed as a child victim, what with him being under 35.

 

[Retired LTC USAR]

I thought he was killed when he was run over by his brother in the stolen SUV?

 

[carpe pugna]

The devil is in the details.

MAIG pulled a list from Slate Magazine which keeps a tally of ALL gun violence deaths, whether murder, murder suicide, suicide, accidental, police actions.

So in that list would be everyone from Tsarnaev to Chris Dorner to the six month old killed last night in Knoxville.

That they didn't scrub the list for controversial names might have been in poor form, but this is much ado about nothing.

 

[Capt.Jim]

I thought he was killed when he was run over by his brother in the stolen SUV?

Yeah that's what I thought too... Maybe an we need an SUV Control Law or nationwide SUV ban...

 

[Silver Dollar]

Yeah that's what I thought too... Maybe an we need an SUV Control Law or nationwide SUV ban...

I don't believe it was clear whether the shootings or his unintentional impersonation of a speed bump killed him. Either way, he got what he deserved. Those anti gun idiots will use any kind of information they find to advance their cause. Facts and good sense go out the window.

 

[S. Hammer]

That they didn't scrub the list for controversial names might have been in poor form, but this is much ado about nothing.

Have to disagree with you on that one. They deliberately inflate their numbers by including anyone shot and killed, misleading the public that they are all victims. The Boston bomber and cop killer Chris Dorner were not victims, they were murderers who got justice.

 

[pownal55]

Often numbers are pumped up by including suicide victims who choose a gun instead of jumping from a window. The details of these statistics have to be studied closely to prevent the antis from fooling the unsuspecting public.

 

[carpe pugna]

Have to disagree with you on that one. They deliberately inflate their numbers by including anyone shot and killed, misleading the public that they are all victims. The Boston bomber and cop killer Chris Dorner were not victims, they were murderers who got justice.

They are raw numbers...neither inflated or deflated...they are not intended to make a point. They are intended to reliably show numbers of deaths by gun violence, no matter the cause.

The number of LEO killings is easy to find and remove...it is called "Legal intervention involving firearm discharge" - 344 in 2010 as an example.

While by society Dorner or the Boston bomber are not victims. But statistically they are victims of gun violence. How you cull the dataset to glean what you want is up to you. As I said, I thought their use of raw numbers was poor form as it also included suicides by gun, a completely different issue than gun violence.

So if, by example you want to separate the causes of death by gun violence, it breaks down like this [for 2010]...

Unintentional (W32-W34) 606
Suicide (X72-X74) 19,392
Homicide (*U01.4,X93-X95) 11,078
Undetermined (Y22-Y24) 252
Legal intervention (Y35.0) 344

Yes, I do statistics and data analysis for a living...sorry.

 

[carpe pugna]

Often numbers are pumped up by including suicide victims who choose a gun instead of jumping from a window. The details of these statistics have to be studied closely to prevent the antis from fooling the unsuspecting public.

Very few people use the 30,000/annually number [the one that includes suicides]. Most use the murder/manslaughter/accidental aggregate which is around 10-11K a year.

I think that is because some got smacked for including suicides.

That is what I have found in bumping around these conversations for the past six months on various forums and social media.

 

[DigiRebel]

Yes, I do statistics and data analysis for a living...sorry.

Evil. LOL, one of the magnificent things about stats is that a skilled statistician can pretty much make the numbers dance to his tune, and tell whatever story he likes... and because numbers are involved the average schmo just accepts it as true.

I'd agree with your point if the monster whose name was listed was just a number, just a statistic... listing him by name as part of a memorial is a touch different. I find it hard to believe that on one in MAIG had paid close enough attention to the tragedy in Boston to recognize the name and look into it. They read the name next to all the others because it added length to their "memorial."

I don't believe it was intentional that they read his name though, I just believe that they didn't care whose names were on that list. The victims weren't being memorialized they were being used to try to drive an emotional spike home, and make a point.

Of course with terms like "gun violence" I have to wonder. For me, anyway, violence of all stripes are bad, why the implement of violence makes it good or bad is a complete mystery. Of course, I'd rather be a victim of gun violence then perhaps... woodchipper violence... or gasoline fire violence.

 

[carpe pugna]

Evil. LOL, one of the magnificent things about stats is that a skilled statistician can pretty much make the numbers dance to his tune, and tell whatever story he likes... and because numbers are involved the average schmo just accepts it as true.

I'd agree with your point if the monster whose name was listed was just a number, just a statistic... listing him by name as part of a memorial is a touch different. I find it hard to believe that on one in MAIG had paid close enough attention to the tragedy in Boston to recognize the name and look into it. They read the name next to all the others because it added length to their "memorial."

I don't believe it was intentional that they read his name though, I just believe that they didn't care whose names were on that list. The victims weren't being memorialized they were being used to try to drive an emotional spike home, and make a point.

Of course with terms like "gun violence" I have to wonder. For me, anyway, violence of all stripes are bad, why the implement of violence makes it good or bad is a complete mystery. Of course, I'd rather be a victim of gun violence then perhaps... woodchipper violence... or gasoline fire violence.

I agree completely with your comment regarding the appropriateness of reading his name.

But my bet, after downloading the spreadsheet that they simply pulled all the names off of Column C and read them...With over 5000 names, there is no way any single one would stick out...the list looks like the UN.

As for why "gun violence"...it is the topic of discussion after Aurora and Sandy Hook. And I saw someone list the number of multiple deaths that have happened since June1 [three deaths or more] and it is 10 incidences. 10 more if you count those were the shooter was a bad aim [like Greenville NC yesterday]. So, twenty instances in 22 days tends to pique folks interest.

If there were 20 instances of multiple killings/injuries with woodchippers, I imagine the conversation would be the same.

 

[carpe pugna]

Evil. LOL, one of the magnificent things about stats is that a skilled statistician can pretty much make the numbers dance to his tune, and tell whatever story he likes... and because numbers are involved the average schmo just accepts it as true.

I agree that a skilled datajammer can manipulate data anyway they want...it has always been the case. it is why I tend to, when I provide analysis include the raw data so folks can look at it cold if they don't like my conclusions.

Raw data tends to not dance very well.

 

[S. Hammer]

They are raw numbers...neither inflated or deflated...they are not intended to make a point.

What planet did you just fly in from? This list was put together by a group pushing for more restrictions on firearms ownership. They most certainly are intended to make a point.

 

[Waywatcher]

While by society Dorner or the Boston bomber are not victims. But statistically they are victims of gun violence.

They are not "victims of gun violence," either. They are not victims of anything. They had justice done upon them. Justice was achieved with a bullet.

 

[Capt.Jim]

They are not "victims of gun violence," either. They are not victims of anything. They had justice done upon them. Justice was achieved with a bullet.

If you ask me labeling these guys as "gun violence victims" as crazy as labeling the criminals sentenced to death in court as "victims of justice violence" or "victims of juror violence".

 

[carpe pugna]

What planet did you just fly in from? This list was put together by a group pushing for more restrictions on firearms ownership. They most certainly are intended to make a point.

NO, the list was put together by SLATE, a bunch of interns who go through every online newspaper and TV presence in the nation daily and log every gun violence death whether accidental, murder, murder/suicide, police shooting or home defense shooting.

The data collects Date, Name, City, State, Age, URL of story and a notes section which annotates gang, police, home invasion, drugs, accidental, domestic violence, etc.

And yes, I do help with the data management now...I started helping after asking a bunch of annoying questions to them about the reliability of their data and suggesting ways to improve it so it would be clean and complete.

What folks do with the data to "make their point" has nothing to do with the raw data.

So, the planet I come from is Informed. It is really a nice place.

 

[carpe pugna]

They are not "victims of gun violence," either. They are not victims of anything. They had justice done upon them. Justice was achieved with a bullet.

If you ask me labeling these guys as "gun violence victims" as crazy as labeling the criminals sentenced to death in court as "victims of justice violence" or "victims of juror violence".

The point is that they were victims of gun violence, no different than if they were drug addled dealers killed in a car crash while evading.

death by gun violence is a simple term that defines those who were killed by guns, nothing more, nothing less. Just because they are bad guys does not redefine their cause of death.

 

[Capt.Jim]

The point is that they were victims of gun violence, no different than if they were drug addled dealers killed in a car crash while evading.

death by gun violence is a simple term that defines those who were killed by guns, nothing more, nothing less. Just because they are bad guys does not redefine their cause of death.

I have a feeling that you are confusing the terminology or playing the word game with the word "violence".

A pair of hands, hammers, bats, knives,cars... Just imagine any tool to be used in killing a human being...

Whether beating someone with bare hands or hitting someone over the head with a baseball bat, or stabbing someone with a knife.

I don't remember ever seeing headlines about "hand violence" or "bat violence" or "knife violence"... ?
Do you?

In conclusion there is no such thing as "gun violence" since there is no such thing as "knife violence" or "bat violence".

A firearm is not a life form to express any type of aggression to be violent.

So, simply, if you want to label a criminal's death after being shot by police for adding to your list of "death by gun" for statistical purposes, I may agree with you on that.

But when you label a criminal's death who was shot by cops as "death by gun violence", it is not only wrong but also carries a very evil-ish purpose for a very obvious political purpose.

and my friend, believe it or not, that's the whole point of this thread.