OLDSTER
Member
Early on the Ruskies, Chinese, and Germans had it figured out.
This is my Korean War vintage Chi-Com model 54 Tok.
This is my Korean War vintage Chi-Com model 54 Tok.
Bottlenecked Pistol Cartridges: Why don't they ever catch on?
- Thread starter Echo40
- Start date
And the .38-40 is a low pressure round from the XIXth Century. Limited only to the strength of the weakest gun it was chambered for.
Nevertheless it can. In a revolver with a 5 1/5 barrel lauch a .40 180 grains bullet at over 1100 fps using the original blackpowder load. The same load in a 20 barrel carbine will reach over 1500 fps.
Yes the .38 in .38-40 is a big fat lie.
I guess they didn't want to call it the .40-40.
Or better, the .40WCF.Kid44
Member
There's a custom gun builder
in AZ who creates proprietary cartridges by bottle necking existing cartridges, .454 to .44, .44 to .41, .41 to .357, etc. He does a lot of revolver cartridges and builds the custom guns too. He does a lot of two-toned guns and guys just drool all over them, which is fine, I'm just not one of them. Great hunting rounds if you are a re-loader, not something you would find on the shelf at a gun shop in the middle of Montana.
in AZ who creates proprietary cartridges by bottle necking existing cartridges, .454 to .44, .44 to .41, .41 to .357, etc. He does a lot of revolver cartridges and builds the custom guns too. He does a lot of two-toned guns and guys just drool all over them, which is fine, I'm just not one of them. Great hunting rounds if you are a re-loader, not something you would find on the shelf at a gun shop in the middle of Montana.
rkittine
Member
Bottle neck cases can cause some issues when they expand upon firing, pushing back from the chamber more than a straight walled case. One of the reasons S&W discontinued the .22 Remington Jet was that is the cylinders had oil in them and the ammo was not clean, the cylinder could get locked up.
Both my 7mm Baby and my 8mm Nambu have issues with both feed and eject, though they were both manufactured by Tokyo Electric and probably have some quality issues.
Bob
Both my 7mm Baby and my 8mm Nambu have issues with both feed and eject, though they were both manufactured by Tokyo Electric and probably have some quality issues.
Bob
I had issues with the frame getting battered in my .400 Cor Bon 1911 - just like I had with a 10mm 1911.
-----
In general though, bottle necked cartridges like the .400 Cor Bon or .357 Sig offer no more magazine capacity than their straight wall parent cases. For example, you get 9 rounds of 10mm in a 1911 magazine, compared to 8 rounds with .40 Cor Bon.
The effect is magnified in a double column single feed magazine. For example the 9mm BHP holds 15 rounds of 9mm luger, but just 10 rounds of .40 S&W.
Similarly and following from that, the .357 Sig is limited to the same magazine capacity as the parent .40 S&W cartridge, which puts it at a disadvantage in contrast to straight wall cartridges firing a .355" projectile.
Pistol "class" bottle necked rounds back in the day like the .44-40, .38-40, .32-20, and 25-20, had a slight bottle neck and a tapered body for a reason.
The slight bottle neck helped the cartridge seal to the case mouth much faster at the comparatively low black powder pressures. That reduced fouling in the chamber and reduced extraction forces.
The tapered body ensured that as soon as the cartridge started to move aft during extraction, the entire case came out of contact with the chamber, and that also reduced extraction forces.
Those features allowed them to be used in lever action rifles.
The lack of those features on the .45 Colt is why there was never a Model 1873 or Model 1892 chambered for .45 Colt back in the black powder era. However, the straight walled design of the .45 Colt allowed it to maximize powder capacity. Ejection was achieved by an ejector rod, which meant the rim was only there for headspace, and could be kept small to minimize cylinder diameter. However, even with rod ejection in the SAA, Colt tapered the chamber by .007" to reduce ejection forces, which is why case life is poor for the .45 Colt.
Another downside of a bottle necked case is that they tend to grow a lot more than straight wall cases. Over the last 43 years I've loaded .32 ACP, .380 ACP, 7.62 Nagant, .30 Carbine, 9mm Luger, .38 Special, .357 Magnum, .45 ACP, .45 Colt and .45 Win Mag as well as .38-55, .375 Win and .45-70 by the thousands, tens of thousands or in the case of 9mm and .38 Special well over a hundred thousand and I've never trimmed cases. The necks crack or the case body gets spider cracks before they ever grow enough to need trimming.
That is not the case with a bottle necked case.
The slight bottle neck helped the cartridge seal to the case mouth much faster at the comparatively low black powder pressures. That reduced fouling in the chamber and reduced extraction forces.
The tapered body ensured that as soon as the cartridge started to move aft during extraction, the entire case came out of contact with the chamber, and that also reduced extraction forces.
Those features allowed them to be used in lever action rifles.
The lack of those features on the .45 Colt is why there was never a Model 1873 or Model 1892 chambered for .45 Colt back in the black powder era. However, the straight walled design of the .45 Colt allowed it to maximize powder capacity. Ejection was achieved by an ejector rod, which meant the rim was only there for headspace, and could be kept small to minimize cylinder diameter. However, even with rod ejection in the SAA, Colt tapered the chamber by .007" to reduce ejection forces, which is why case life is poor for the .45 Colt.
Another downside of a bottle necked case is that they tend to grow a lot more than straight wall cases. Over the last 43 years I've loaded .32 ACP, .380 ACP, 7.62 Nagant, .30 Carbine, 9mm Luger, .38 Special, .357 Magnum, .45 ACP, .45 Colt and .45 Win Mag as well as .38-55, .375 Win and .45-70 by the thousands, tens of thousands or in the case of 9mm and .38 Special well over a hundred thousand and I've never trimmed cases. The necks crack or the case body gets spider cracks before they ever grow enough to need trimming.
That is not the case with a bottle necked case.
KarmannGhia
Member
Go reload/handload 100 rounds of 38 special and then reload 100 rounds of 32-20 and you will know why bottleneck calibers are "less" common/popular.
OP
Echo40
Member
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2017
- Messages
- 4,044
- Reaction score
- 7,873
Okay, I gotta ask... Are the majority of handgun owners into reloading, because I always just sort lf presumed that the average handgun owner just bought factory loaded ammunition, and thus I would presume that the difficulty of reloading bottlenecked cases wouldn't be all that much of a detriment towards bottlenecked cartridges achieving mainstream popularity.
- Joined
- Feb 3, 2015
- Messages
- 1,361
- Reaction score
- 1,584
A bottleneck cartridge offers no more capacity than its straight walled counterpart. And most people want more capacity when they use a smaller projectile. The higher capacity of 9mm pistols compared to 40 versions is one reason they are more popular.
Bottleneck cartridges also have a reputation for being more susceptible to bullet setback. I don't know if this is a real problem but this perception does hurt the popularity of bottleneck cartridges.
Modern bullets are not as dependent on high velocity as they used to be. You really don't need a 1500 fps velocity to get reliable expansion these days.
High velocity is great for barrier penetration but if you need something that will penetrate into the vital organs of something like a wild boar or bear you want a heavy bullet, not a light fast one which favors a straight wall cartridge. Barrier penetration and defense against wild animals are both niche applications but more people are concerned with the latter.
You can often get pretty close to the ballistics of a bottleneck cartridge by choosing a light for caliber bullet in the straight wall equivalent. If you think the 125 grain 357 Sig is the ultimate cartridge for self defense compare its ballistics to a 135 grain 40 S&W load from the same manufacturer.
And finally, the reason I decided against getting a 357 Sig pistol, those suckers are LOUD. No high pressure round is going to be quiet but the bottleneck cartridges use slower burning powder and are louder than straight walled cartridges generating similar ballistics. I have never shot them back to back in the same range session but the 357 Sig seemed louder than a 357 magnum revolver.
Bottleneck cartridges also have a reputation for being more susceptible to bullet setback. I don't know if this is a real problem but this perception does hurt the popularity of bottleneck cartridges.
Modern bullets are not as dependent on high velocity as they used to be. You really don't need a 1500 fps velocity to get reliable expansion these days.
High velocity is great for barrier penetration but if you need something that will penetrate into the vital organs of something like a wild boar or bear you want a heavy bullet, not a light fast one which favors a straight wall cartridge. Barrier penetration and defense against wild animals are both niche applications but more people are concerned with the latter.
You can often get pretty close to the ballistics of a bottleneck cartridge by choosing a light for caliber bullet in the straight wall equivalent. If you think the 125 grain 357 Sig is the ultimate cartridge for self defense compare its ballistics to a 135 grain 40 S&W load from the same manufacturer.
And finally, the reason I decided against getting a 357 Sig pistol, those suckers are LOUD. No high pressure round is going to be quiet but the bottleneck cartridges use slower burning powder and are louder than straight walled cartridges generating similar ballistics. I have never shot them back to back in the same range session but the 357 Sig seemed louder than a 357 magnum revolver.
I like bottleneck pistol cartridges. As a practical matter, the bottle neck cartridges really shine in pistol caliber carbines or submachine guns. The 7.62x25 is, in essence, a 7.63 Mauser +P so it is important not to mix them up.
The PPS-43 does not give away a whole lot of utility to an M2 carbine with some of the hotter Warsaw Pact ammo getting a 85 grain bullet to 1800 fps.
The PPS-43 does not give away a whole lot of utility to an M2 carbine with some of the hotter Warsaw Pact ammo getting a 85 grain bullet to 1800 fps.
Attachments
I have three in .32-20 and yes, I reload (and yes they are a PIA to reload when compared to straight wall cases). In fact, other than .22's and shotgun shells, I don't think I've bought factory ammo in 45 years. I even reload for the one 9mm handgun that I own. Here's one of 'em (it's a USFA that I bought just before they ended production of SA's):
Oldsalt66
Member
- Joined
- Aug 7, 2014
- Messages
- 854
- Reaction score
- 1,378
My guess would be that despite their higher muzzle velocity and energy in their own calibers, any increase in their terminal ballistics/wounding capacities over those of straight wall cartridges didn't offset the extra cost of manufacturing them.
In the end, they're still only pistol cartridges and as such, and in almost all cases, they can't emulate the additional wounding mechanisms of rifle rounds.
That being said, .357 SIG does provide useful benefits when shooting through automobile glass and car bodies is necessary.
In the end, they're still only pistol cartridges and as such, and in almost all cases, they can't emulate the additional wounding mechanisms of rifle rounds.
That being said, .357 SIG does provide useful benefits when shooting through automobile glass and car bodies is necessary.
One of the traps that befalls bottle neck cartridges. is....
Once they are introduced, people quickly figure out that the can remove the bottle neck and increase the caliber of the bullet.
Consider, after the 7.63 cal. Luger was introduced... it was quickly figured out that with minimal work you could have a 9mm.
.357 Sig was introduced, and Police Departments went to the .40 S&W in droves.
Why buy a .25 NAA, when I can have the same cartridge casse in .32.ACP, etc.,etc,,
Once they are introduced, people quickly figure out that the can remove the bottle neck and increase the caliber of the bullet.
Consider, after the 7.63 cal. Luger was introduced... it was quickly figured out that with minimal work you could have a 9mm.
.357 Sig was introduced, and Police Departments went to the .40 S&W in droves.
Why buy a .25 NAA, when I can have the same cartridge casse in .32.ACP, etc.,etc,,
I'm not a reloader, and I have three .357 SIG pistols, and I shoot them a lot. So it's me who's keeping the .357 SIG ammo manufacturing lines humming.
Eh, what's that again?
Ivan the Butcher
Member
Who say bottle necked (more commonly called shouldered) cartridges are not popular? You?, Me? Some guy on the street?
Technology is generally what determines what works. Shouldered cartridges and the automatic pistols or revolvers the feed are the products of multiple technologies! Primarily two, Metallurgy and Chemistry. Neither of those technologies stand still for long.
Case development started with paper wrapped powder and ball, Went to machined metal and coiled wire, then what we are most familiar with extruded metal. there is even a move towards caseless ammo
Technology is generally what determines what works. Shouldered cartridges and the automatic pistols or revolvers the feed are the products of multiple technologies! Primarily two, Metallurgy and Chemistry. Neither of those technologies stand still for long.
Case development started with paper wrapped powder and ball, Went to machined metal and coiled wire, then what we are most familiar with extruded metal. there is even a move towards caseless ammo
OP
Echo40
Member
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2017
- Messages
- 4,044
- Reaction score
- 7,873
The market at large. Bottlenecked cartridges haven't achieved mainstream popularity in spite of their many advantages.
Okay, I'm not sure what bearing this has on the topic of discussion though, unless you're trying to say that bottlenecked cartridges are obsolete or something.
Yeah, I really don't understand what you're getting at here. Yes, cartridges have advanced, but it's not as if bottlenecked cartridges only ever existed to aid in feeding nor that such is their sole benefit, so the advances in technology and improved reliability of straight-walled cartridges has not in any way rendered bottlenecked cartridges obsolete.
I load the .357 sig with both jacketed and cast boolits. it shoots the 124 grain truncated conefrom a Lee mold quite well. Loading itself isn't more complicated, you just need to lube the brass when resizing much like you do bottlenecked rifle cartridges. It does take an extra step, but I have also discovered 9mm are much easier to resize if you lube them, they are tapered wall and for some reason a lot more friction than a straight walled case. Lee makes a crimp dies that works perfect in the sig, much like their rifle crimp dies.
My opinion is that reloading isn't necessarily more difficult, just maybe takes a tad more thought and maybe many folks are scared it is a challenge and steer clear. I like challenges so I took it head on and found it not so bad.
Rosewood
My opinion is that reloading isn't necessarily more difficult, just maybe takes a tad more thought and maybe many folks are scared it is a challenge and steer clear. I like challenges so I took it head on and found it not so bad.
Rosewood
I think it is about velocity. You can put a smaller bullet in the case and push it faster. Speed tends to do more trauma to what it hits than a slower heavier bullet, even though slow and heavy tends to penetrate more. If you go to light in a larger caliber, the bullet is short and can affect accuracy if it tumbles. Small diameter can be longer and stabilize better. Not sure this matters much in pistol cartridges, just some thoughts.
Rosewood
The sale of ammo is dictated by people who buy loaded ammo. Reloaders have nothing to do with it.
Remember every time the FBI switched calibers, sales of guns and ammo went up with it. Then they went back to 9mm and all of sudden the 40SW dropped like a rock. Ammo and guns.
Consumers are not gonna buy expensive ammo.
Remember every time the FBI switched calibers, sales of guns and ammo went up with it. Then they went back to 9mm and all of sudden the 40SW dropped like a rock. Ammo and guns.
Consumers are not gonna buy expensive ammo.
Similar threads
