Is the whole; "Cartridge X will chamber in Firearm Y" really a valid concern?

[Echo40]

Is the whole; "Cartridge X will chamber in Firearm Y" really a valid concern?

This morning I was reading an article on the failed "9mm Federal" cartridge, which for those who don't already know, was essentially 9mm Auto Rim or a rimmed version of 9mm Parabellum designed with Revolvers in mind. Unfortunately, it was introduced in the 1980s when Revolvers were beginning to fall out of favor compared to Semiautomatic Pistols.
However, it was the opinion of the author that 9mm Federal also failed in part due to safety concerns because 9mm Federal would chamber in old top-break Revolvers chambered in .38 S&W, which is a substantially lower pressure cartridge, and thus there was a seemingly valid concern that if someone were to load 9mm Federal into an old .38 S&W top-break Revolver, then it would likely lead to a catastrophic failure, potentially resulting in injury or death.

I've heard the concern many times before, it's why "Magnum" cartridges like .357 Magnum and .44 Magnum were intentionally made longer so that they couldn't chamber in .38 Special or .44 Special Revolvers. However, I really have to question whether this legitimately is a valid concern.

Don't get me wrong, I'm well aware that there are folks in the world who either aren't too bright or otherwise foolishly choose to take unnecessary risks despite being perfectly aware of the danger presented by their actions, but for all of the concerns over the possibility of Bubba using the wrong ammo in his gun and blowing himself to kingdom come in the process, I've personally never heard of such a thing occurring, have you?
Besides, there are a number of companies like Buffalo Bore out there who produce overpressure loads which will chamber in any firearm, despite only being rated/approved for use in firearms which have been modified to withstand higher pressures or otherwise are known to be over-engineered to withstand higher than ordinary operational pressures, yet somehow they haven't been sued into bankruptcy because somebody made the much more likely mistake of loading one of their so-called ".45 Colt +P" loads into an old Colt Single Action Army than somebody buying a box of "9mm Federal" then attempting to fire it out of Dad's Iver Johnson marked ".38 S&W" on the barrel.

In fact, there are a few particular firearms which remain in production is supposed at such risk, yet I've never once heard of it occurring. Case in point, the Taurus Judge, (and by extension the Smith & Wesson Governor as well as the Magnum Research BFR) a revolver chambered for both .45 Long Colt as well as .410 Bore due to the elongated cylinder and similar dimensions of both cartridges. Taurus was wise enough to reem the cylinders so that higher pressure .45 caliber cartridges such as .454 Casull and .460 S&W Magnum won't chamber. However, a .444 Marlin rifle cartridge will chamber, and if someone were to fire it then the results would be absolutely disastrous, as the Judge is only rated for Standard Pressure .45 Long Colt, which only operates at a modest 14,000psi peak pressure, whereas the .444 Marlin operates at 42,000psi, which practically guarantees that the Judge would catastrophically fail, likely resulting in injury or death for the unfortunate soul who made such a terrible mistake of loading a rifle round into a handgun.
But wait, if that is really such a valid concern, then why is the Taurus Judge, not to mention the S&W Governor still on the market today? Surely Taurus would have been sued time after time until they either went bankrupt or pulled the revolver off the market due to folks loading up their revolvers with .444 Marlin.

Some might argue that it's because folks are at least smart enough not to load rifle rounds into a pistol, but keep in mind that this is a Revolver that shoots not only handgun cartridges, but shotgun shells as well, so it already defies such conventional thinking. Others may suggest that it's because they're at least smart enough to read the difference between the ".45/.410" on the barrel and the ".444 Marlin" on the box of ammunition, but that begs the question, why wouldn't they likewise be able to tell the difference between the ".38 Special" on the barrel and the ".357 Magnum" on the box, or ase in point, the ".38 S&W" on the barrel and the "9mm Federal" on the box of ammo?

Moreover, let's revisit overpressure loads produced not only by companies like Buffalo Bore but by amateur handloaders. Obviously folks are free to pack as much powder as they can fit into a brass case before capping it off with a bullet, yet still, we don't hear many stories on the news about folks blowing their guns up with gruesome results.

So is this really a valid concern? Are people, nay, shooters indeed that dumb? It certainly doesn't seem like it. But I'd like to hear from the community. Has anyone here ever actually known anyone that dumb, someone who actually did such a thing? Better yet, is there a doctor in the house? How many of you Doctors, Surgeons, or EMTs have had to treat patients who had injured themselves by loading the wrong ammunition into a firearm then pulling the trigger? Leave a response below.

 

[Nevada Ed]

"I thought, he said, darn fine print, I was in a hurry.........."

Pass the popcorn, please.

 

[DWalt]

I have seen an awful lot of guns fired, never saw a ka-boom. I once did a series of tests to see what it would take to blow up an M9 (Beretta 92). I couldn’t do it, the worst I could do was bulge the barrel, not split it.I have seen pictures of KBs, but those all seem to involve double (or more) propellant charges. I believe more modern guns probably have very high safety factors built into their designs to prevent catastrophic overpressure incidents.

 

[sigp220.45]

I don’t think its a big deal. Youtube is full of guys shooting crazy stuff - .50 BMG in a 12 gauge, .444 Marlin in a .410, etc. Steel is hard, lead is soft, and dumb people have all the luck.

 

[Paul in Nevada]

However, it was the opinion of the author that 9mm Federal also failed in part due to safety concerns because 9mm Federal would chamber in old top-break Revolvers chambered in .38 S&W, which is a substantially lower pressure cartridge, and thus there was a seemingly valid concern that if someone were to load 9mm Federal into an old .38 S&W top-break Revolver, then it would likely lead to a catastrophic failure, potentially resulting in injury or death.

Gun writers think this way, not the buying public. 9mm Federal sounds like a product the market did not want.
As for the other part of your question, it's a concern, but it can't hold back progress. 410 shotguns have been around long before the Judge, yet Marlin made the 444 anyway. I haven't heard of any ancient 410's blowing up with 444 but I guess it's happened.

 

[mscampbell2734]

The issue is not MODERN guns, but in this specific example, 38 S&W, old antique guns that have an unknown number of rounds through them and in many cases weak poor quality metal to start with, 100 years ago when they were new. Add in hidden rust from corrosive primers from back in the day, and no I would not fire some of them with ANY ammo.

Now are SOME gun owners, to be blunt, dumb enough to try to load something way way overboard in their gun and blow their hand off? Yes, just ask any ER doctor how many people come in with some sort of wound from doing something dumb, normally after a few adult beverages.

 

[DWalt]

Back when the 9mm Federal cartridge was still with us, I remember reading stories that some old .38 S&W caliber revolvers had been damaged by firing the new 9mm cartridges. But that was too long ago for me to remember any details. There were a lot of El Cheapo .38 S&W revolvers made back in the dark ages, so there may (or may not) be some foundation for such stories. What seems to be true is that the 9mm Federal cartridges could be fired in .38 S&W-chambered revolvers, but I have never personally done it to find out.

Note that there are stories, apparently factual, that during WWII British troops did on occasion fire captured German 9mm ammunition in their BSRs, both Enfield and S&W, out of necessity. I don’t remember hearing any KB stories about that.

 

[2152hq]

An early 20th century mfg 38S&W caliber top break revolver cylinder of most any mfg of the time wasn't made to handle the 33K psi the 9mmRimmed . That's in the 357 pressure area.

9mmRimmed loading data used 9mmLuger data. IIRC the factory round was only loaded w/a 115gr bullet at around 1200+ fps.

We start the hand wringing when rechambered 38spcls of excl quality and N frame size are rechambered to 357.
Plus some wonder if recylindering an 38spcl M&P with a K frame 357 cyl is a wise move.
..A 9mmLuger/9mmRimmed in a 38 S&Wcal early 20thCentury TB might work out OK??

It might if it stays in one piece, and for how long would tht be?
You can find out for yourself. It's not that hard to rig up a 9mmLuger OTC commercial round to load and fire in a cheap TB 38S&W revolver.

I'll settle for what seems obvious. But I am willing to be surprised when the old TB's show extreme strength of matr'l and design that here to for has gone unnoticed to mfg's and R&D engineers.
Why did they bother with all that HandEjector design/re-design, heatreating and steel alloy research to bring out the .357M at 35K psi.
They could have just used a Hopkins and Allen or Iver Johnson topbreak and saved all that money and time.

As far as other guns being shot with inappropriate ammo and never coming apart.
True most modern guns can take a lot and survive in one piece. It doesn't mean there's no damage to it.
Many times there is, headspace, locking system damage is common.
Govt mandated Proof in most of the world is designed to catch such things. That is what the 'View Proof' is and it's mark signifys.
Before and after proof fireing inspection and measurements of certain critical parts and dimensions. Done to see if the metal has changed in those dimensions beyond what is considered safe.
Most guns that fail Proofing, fail under the View Proof demands. Very few actually come apart (explode) during proof firing in these facilitys.
Most that fail View Proof fail on the before proof firing inspection. Poor quality and poor spec&out of spec problems are found early.

But owners just keep goin' on. Not knowing what really happened (if anything) and think it was neat that what ever trick they pulled off went OK cause the gun and themselves are still in reasonably good condition as far as they are concerned.

Plus most don't go around boasting about a bone headed move they made that destroyed a fine firearm.
At least that's the way society was. Lately it seems like a something in the water has made it a sport to brag w/ Video proof about how to wreak perfectly good stuff.
Entertainment they call it.

 

[OKFC05]

Having been an NRA instructor for 50 years and range official (in three states and four disciplines) for much of that, I have seen more than my share of "catastrophic firearm disassembly".

It doesn't keep me up nights worrying about it especially since the "kabooms" destroyed the guns, but not the shooter. There were a half dozen trips to the emergency room, but nobody died while I was there. There were two fatalities, one intentional, when no safety officers were present on the range.

Unsupervised "all members have a key" ranges have been the most prone to "hold my beer and watch this" incidents, as referred to in the posts above. There is no stupid quite like drunk stupid.

After four kabooms in the same day at a match, I stopped the match for an ammunition inspection and found one group who had raided their dad's ammunition stash and were using "9mm Major" in normal guns instead of the custom Open guns designed for it. No damage to people that day, just to guns.

 

[03hemi]

Makes a huge difference.
Run a 300 BO through a .556 barrel and see what happens?

 

[ralph7]

OP brings up a valid point.
I’m in the school of not discontinuing a useful cartridge just because it has a potential for an accident. Life is full of dangerous scenarios if directions aren’t followed and trying to spoon feed folks in the direction of preventative measures strikes me as a bit over protective, if not downright unproductive.

 

[THE PILGRIM]

Saw a 12 Ga barrel turned into a Blunderbuss.
He shot a Slug into several inches of mud.
The barrel didn’t split, just opened like a funnel on the muzzle.
Where’s the Hacksaw?

 

[Echo40]

Back when the 9mm Federal cartridge was still with us, I remember reading stories that some old .38 S&W caliber revolvers had been damaged by firing the new 9mm cartridges. But that was too long ago for me to remember any details. There were a lot of El Cheapo .38 S&W revolvers made back in the dark ages, so there may (or may not) be some foundation for such stories. What seems to be true is that the 9mm Federal cartridges could be fired in .38 S&W-chambered revolvers, but I have never personally done it to find out.

Note that there are stories, apparently factual, that during WWII British troops did on occasion fire captured German 9mm ammunition in their BSRs, both Enfield and S&W, out of necessity. I don’t remember hearing any KB stories about that.

You make a good point in regards to quality control of the past not being up to the standards of today, not to mention the quality of materials.
You were wise not to put such tales to the test by refraining from loading 9mm Federal into a top-break .38 S&W. I hope that nobody here has misunderstood and thinks that I'm by any means underestimating the potential threat of loading the wrong cartridge into a gun, I'm merely questioning whether such is a valid concern since it doesn't appear to be something that the average person, let alone anyone who is familiar with firearms would do.

Likewise, I've heard tales of Germans picking up Russian 7.62x25 Tokarev ammo and using it in their 7.63x25 Mauser Lugers during WWII. Dunno how well that turned out for them though, as the Tokarev round is loaded substantially hotter than the Mauser round it was based on.

 

[Nevada Ed]

I might add that even though rare, compared to rifles and hand guns,

even shotguns can have a bad day when the user makes a small error in ammo selections.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

I guess in the heat of war finding that one EXTRA bullet that went BANG! might have been better than a "click"...

However... Any individual who inserts a 444 Marlin rifle round in any 410 gauge chamber because "It fits!" certainly deserves a nomination for a Darwin Award?

Hopefully, if done it was done prior to any successful breeding...!

Cheers!

 

[sigp220.45]

However... Any individual who inserts a 444 Marlin rifle round in any 410 gauge chamber because "It fits!" certainly deserves a nomination for a Darwin Award?

Hopefully, if done it was done prior to any successful breeding...!

Cheers!

[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wAnbDvLIAac[/ame]

These guys did. No damage to the gun at all.

 

[JDinAZ]

This morning I was reading an article on the failed "9mm Federal" cartridge, which for those who don't already know, was essentially 9mm Auto Rim or a rimmed version of 9mm Parabellum designed with Revolvers in mind. Unfortunately, it was introduced in the 1980s when Revolvers were beginning to fall out of favor compared to Semiautomatic Pistols.
However, it was the opinion of the author that 9mm Federal also failed in part due to safety concerns because 9mm Federal would chamber in old top-break Revolvers chambered in .38 S&W, which is a substantially lower pressure cartridge, and thus there was a seemingly valid concern that if someone were to load 9mm Federal into an old .38 S&W top-break Revolver, then it would likely lead to a catastrophic failure, potentially resulting in injury or death.

I've heard the concern many times before, it's why "Magnum" cartridges like .357 Magnum and .44 Magnum were intentionally made longer so that they couldn't chamber in .38 Special or .44 Special Revolvers. However, I really have to question whether this legitimately is a valid concern.

Don't get me wrong, I'm well aware that there are folks in the world who either aren't too bright or otherwise foolishly choose to take unnecessary risks despite being perfectly aware of the danger presented by their actions, but for all of the concerns over the possibility of Bubba using the wrong ammo in his gun and blowing himself to kingdom come in the process, I've personally never heard of such a thing occurring, have you?
Besides, there are a number of companies like Buffalo Bore out there who produce overpressure loads which will chamber in any firearm, despite only being rated/approved for use in firearms which have been modified to withstand higher pressures or otherwise are known to be over-engineered to withstand higher than ordinary operational pressures, yet somehow they haven't been sued into bankruptcy because somebody made the much more likely mistake of loading one of their so-called ".45 Colt +P" loads into an old Colt Single Action Army than somebody buying a box of "9mm Federal" then attempting to fire it out of Dad's Iver Johnson marked ".38 S&W" on the barrel.

In fact, there are a few particular firearms which remain in production is supposed at such risk, yet I've never once heard of it occurring. Case in point, the Taurus Judge, (and by extension the Smith & Wesson Governor as well as the Magnum Research BFR) a revolver chambered for both .45 Long Colt as well as .410 Bore due to the elongated cylinder and similar dimensions of both cartridges. Taurus was wise enough to reem the cylinders so that higher pressure .45 caliber cartridges such as .454 Casull and .460 S&W Magnum won't chamber. However, a .444 Marlin rifle cartridge will chamber, and if someone were to fire it then the results would be absolutely disastrous, as the Judge is only rated for Standard Pressure .45 Long Colt, which only operates at a modest 14,000psi peak pressure, whereas the .444 Marlin operates at 42,000psi, which practically guarantees that the Judge would catastrophically fail, likely resulting in injury or death for the unfortunate soul who made such a terrible mistake of loading a rifle round into a handgun.
But wait, if that is really such a valid concern, then why is the Taurus Judge, not to mention the S&W Governor still on the market today? Surely Taurus would have been sued time after time until they either went bankrupt or pulled the revolver off the market due to folks loading up their revolvers with .444 Marlin.

Some might argue that it's because folks are at least smart enough not to load rifle rounds into a pistol, but keep in mind that this is a Revolver that shoots not only handgun cartridges, but shotgun shells as well, so it already defies such conventional thinking. Others may suggest that it's because they're at least smart enough to read the difference between the ".45/.410" on the barrel and the ".444 Marlin" on the box of ammunition, but that begs the question, why wouldn't they likewise be able to tell the difference between the ".38 Special" on the barrel and the ".357 Magnum" on the box, or ase in point, the ".38 S&W" on the barrel and the "9mm Federal" on the box of ammo?

Moreover, let's revisit overpressure loads produced not only by companies like Buffalo Bore but by amateur handloaders. Obviously folks are free to pack as much powder as they can fit into a brass case before capping it off with a bullet, yet still, we don't hear many stories on the news about folks blowing their guns up with gruesome results.

So is this really a valid concern? Are people, nay, shooters indeed that dumb? It certainly doesn't seem like it. But I'd like to hear from the community. Has anyone here ever actually known anyone that dumb, someone who actually did such a thing? Better yet, is there a doctor in the house? How many of you Doctors, Surgeons, or EMTs have had to treat patients who had injured themselves by loading the wrong ammunition into a firearm then pulling the trigger? Leave a response below.

The biggest issue with the 9MM Federal ( 9mm Auto Rim) I'm pretty sure would have a little more parameter than just something chambered in 38 S&W

The top break models do not have the frame strength to hold the pressures. A full frame isnt nearly as susceptible to failure.

I was on Buffalo Bores site checking something a while back and noticed they make a 38 Colt New Police round ( different but same ballpark ) that stays within proper chamber pressures but they only recommend it for full frame models, no top break.

Which leads me to think its more of a weaker mechanism in the top breaks that would want to fail

 

[crows]

I honestly have to go with the belief that it was discontinued because it didn't sell. There are way too many examples to believe other wise. Besides your .444/.410 example, .38ACP/.38Super comes to mind. Or, the previously discussed many times over .38-44 level .38 Special in older J or K frames. Or, 5.56NATO spec in .223... Naw, not enough people bought it.

 

[Billylee]

I too have seen some crazy stuff on You Tube. I think some of that comes from an attitude of, ‘I’m going to do it cuz I can…’. I also think it might be a ‘Bubba’ having a ‘hold my beer’ episode. You can’t fix stupid…not even with duct tape…but, it will muffle the sound!