Bottlenecked Pistol Cartridges: Why don't they ever catch on?

[colt_saa]

Okay, I gotta ask... Are the majority of handgun owners into reloading, because I always just sort lf presumed that the average handgun owner just bought factory loaded ammunition, and thus I would presume that the difficulty of reloading bottlenecked cases wouldn't be all that much of a detriment towards bottlenecked cartridges achieving mainstream popularity.

A Majority of shooters across the nation? Absolutly not. Most Americans purchase their ammunition

However a Majority of the regular contributors to this Forum are absolutely hand loaders

 

[Gamecock]

It's John Moses Browning's fault.

 

[Gamecock]

People like bigger, albeit slower, bullets in handguns.

Tapering the case down to use a smaller bullet is less efficient. But it can be fun! I bet that Tokarev is a hoot! Does anyone make guns for the 7.62X25 now?

Also note that at larger calibers - .357 Sig, specifically - there is little performance gain to be had. A properly loaded 38 Super is its equal.

 

[rosewood]

People like bigger, albeit slower, bullets in handguns.

Tapering the case down to use a smaller bullet is less efficient. But it can be fun! I bet that Tokarev is a hoot! Does anyone make guns for the 7.62X25 now?

Also note that at larger calibers - .357 Sig, specifically - there is little performance gain to be had. A properly loaded 38 Super is its equal.

I am getting 1430 fps across the chronograph with a 124 grain XTP using longshot powder in the sig P229 3.9" bbl. Can you get that with a 38 super in equivalent length barrel? That is 563 ft*lbs of energy. I am asking because I don't know, never loaded a super. Hard to get that energy out of a .40 S&W also.

Rosewood

 

[colt_saa]

Also note that at larger calibers - .357 Sig, specifically - there is little performance gain to be had. A properly loaded 38 Super is its equal.

I have to disagree with that.
It is not possible to get the 125 grain 38 SUPER to the same velocity levels that the 357SIG can achieve without exceeding SAAMI pressure standards

However, both the 356TSW and the 9x23 Winchester are designed to work at higher levels and do achieve 357 Magnum performance in the 125 grain loadings

SAAMI Max Pressure
38 SUPER - 36,500 PSI
356TSW - 50,000 PSI
9x23 Winchester - 55,000 PSI

 

[rosewood]

I have to disagree with that.
It is not possible to get the 125 grain 38 SUPER to the same velocity levels that the 357SIG can achieve without exceeding SAAMI pressure standards

However, both the 356TSW and the 9x23 Winchester are designed to work at higher levels and do achieve 357 Magnum performance in the 125 grain loadings

SAAMI Max Pressure
38 SUPER - 36,500 PSI
356TSW - 50,000 PSI
9x23 Winchester - 55,000 PSI

And the sig does it with 40,000 PSI

 

[Gamecock]

10.4 grains of N105 in da Super.

https://www.vihtavuori.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Vihtavuori_Reloading_Guide_2020_USA-www.pdf

 

[colt_saa]

10.4 grains of N105 in da Super.

https://www.vihtavuori.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Vihtavuori_Reloading_Guide_2020_USA-www.pdf

Tell us what your REAL WORLD velocity is, not an over inflated manufacturer's claim that was achieved out of a 5 1/2" Test barrel

What can that load do out of a SIG P220?

 

[pistolpete10]

I have one thing to say, Carbide Dies do NOT require lube. That's enough reason for me to never consider bottleneck pistol cartridges.

 

[rosewood]

I have one thing to say, Carbide Dies do NOT require lube. That's enough reason for me to never consider bottleneck pistol cartridges.

Supposedly. I have found that the 9mm even with the carbide dies, loads much better when lubed. Granted it isn't exactly straight walled, but all straight walled resize so much easier than 9mm. The 9mm resizing is so tight, it makes me think there is something wrong, so I started lubing them with Hornady 1 shot.

Guess you will never load bottle necked rifle cartridges then?

Rosewood

 

[rosewood]

10.4 grains of N105 in da Super.

https://www.vihtavuori.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Vihtavuori_Reloading_Guide_2020_USA-www.pdf

I saw that also in my Lee manual, but that is a 5 1/2" barrel per VV's website. My P229 does 1430 with a 3.9" bbl. I am betting if I shot it out of a 5 1/2" barrel, it would beat that and again with much less pressure.

I have been wanting to get a .357 sig bbl for my M&P 5" just to see what it will do. Haven't pulled the trigger yet. Currently in a 4" SD40, I am getting like 1070 with a 180 XTP using Longshot powder. That same load in the 5" M&P is getting 1170 fps. 100 FPS for 1" of barrel. Seems on the short end of barrel lengths, you get more gain per inch than when the barrels start getting longer with certain powders.

Rosewood

 

[Gamecock]

Tell us what your REAL WORLD velocity is, not an over inflated manufacturer's claim that was achieved out of a 5 1/2" Test barrel

1475 out of a 6" Fusion.

1430 from a 5" Colt government model.

1395 from a 4.25" Colt commander.

 

[colt_saa]

I have one thing to say, Carbide Dies do NOT require lube. That's enough reason for me to never consider bottleneck pistol cartridges.

It is true that Carbide Dies do NOT REQUIRE lube

That does not mean that they MUST be used WITHOUT lube

I hand load almost 2 dozen different cartridges. There are several straight wall cartridges that even with carbide dies, a quick blast of Hornady One Shot into the loose brass and then a bit of mixing it up with my hand makes a NOTICEABLE difference in the force necessary to size the cartridge. I would say I do this every 400 - 500 rounds

My cleaned brass is all stored in pretzel/gum/candy jars. So I spray One Lube for perhaps a second at most into the opening of the jar and I am ready to load

Hornady One Shot has been my go-to lube since it was introduced. I have not used the old fashioned messy and sticky lube that gets rolled on to the case in well over a decade

 

[pistolpete10]

Supposedly. I have found that the 9mm even with the carbide dies, loads much better when lubed. Granted it isn't exactly straight walled, but all straight walled resize so much easier than 9mm. The 9mm resizing is so tight, it makes me think there is something wrong, so I started lubing them with Hornady 1 shot.

Guess you will never load bottle necked rifle cartridges then?

Rosewood

I don't have any problem with 9MM resizing, never gonna lube them. AS for rifle cases, I don't load enough of them to worry about cleaning the lube off of. I do have Lee collet dies to neck size .270 and .243, limited success here like most Lee stuff. Had to go back to lubing the rifle cases and using conventional dies.
Sizing the 9MM should not be a problem, for many years I loaded 9MM on an old RCBS Jr press(it does not have compound linkage), no problem. I've no idea why you're having to lube them. I have 2 sets of RCBS dies for 9MM, both work well.

 

[STCM(SW)]

"Guess you will never load bottle necked rifle cartridges then?"
Once fired in my rifle and just neck size....

 

[DWalt]

I am getting 1430 fps across the chronograph with a 124 grain XTP using longshot powder in the sig P229 3.9" bbl. Can you get that with a 38 super in equivalent length barrel? That is 563 ft*lbs of energy. I am asking because I don't know, never loaded a super. Hard to get that energy out of a .40 S&W also.

Rosewood

Yes you can. However, it is safer to use 9x23 Winchester or Starline Supercomp cases, which are built to take the higher pressure. I use AA #5 propellant. They will work in a .38 Super chamber.

 

[max503]

I'd bet anything the reason straight-walled wins over bottleneck is manufacturing costs. A gun that shoots cheaper, straight-walled cases is going to do better on the market than one that requires more expensive bottleneck cases.

 

[max503]

Anyone with a Government Model .45 can instantly convert it to .400 Cor-Bon by simply changing only the barrel and nothing else. Cases are easily formed by one pass of a .45 ACP case through a .400 CB sizing die. Ballistic performance can approach 10mm if desired. Feeding is flawless, never a misfeed. Yet it just never caught on. One main reason is that none of the handgun or ammo manufacturers (other than Cor-Bon) supported it.

This brings up another point. My first reaction to the above post was, "That would be awesome. I have a 45". Then I thought, "Why?". Do we really need the extra performance and cost? The vast majority of my bullets go through a sheet of paper then into a backstop. My 357 and 44 calibers kill deer handily. I believe they would work fine on two-legged varmints. Why should I pay more for a gun and loads?

 

[Echo40]

Does anyone make guns for the 7.62X25 now?

Zastava still makes a couple, (the M57 and M88) albeit they're both just updated versions of older designs.

 

[DWalt]

Depends on the quantity. If I am loading a fairly small number at a time, say 100 or fewer, I will usually lube cases even though using carbide dies. Smoother and easier resizing and it doesn't take long. Just more messy.

I usually load a limited number of rounds a day or so before I go out shooting, instead of loading a large quantity far in advance.