Boys in Blue

[Kinman]

I was shooting early at the range today, I was on the 50/100 yard rifle range. About 11:00 or so a group of local cops and staties rolled in and went to the 25yd pistol range. They were packing shotguns, set up mansize targets at 15yds and proceeded to tear the center out of them with slugs...I didn't see them use anything other than shotguns and judging by the holes in the targets they used nothing but slugs. I was impressed that cops can use a shotgun as well as I can, I got a little comfort out of that...it was probably their swat teams practicing or something. We get the swat teams down on our lines from time to time, they came down for a little tune up after an altercation with a guy that boarded himself up in his house.

 

[jkc]

The use by law enforcement agencies of shotguns and slugs vs. 5.56mm carbines, seems quite anachronistic, today. There's almost nothing of which the shotgun/slug combo is capable that isn't better handled by a compact carbine in 5.56 or similar caliber, and, better handled by officers of diminutive stature. Buckshot may be appropriate for extremely close quarters interior work, but I would want a carbine for almost everything else...

 

[Fishslayer]

Keep an eye on yer dog...

 

[redneckemt]

The use by law enforcement agencies of shotguns and slugs vs. 5.56mm carbines, seems quite anachronistic, today. There's almost nothing of which the shotgun/slug combo is capable that isn't better handled by a compact carbine in 5.56 or similar caliber, and, better handled by officers of diminutive stature. Buckshot may be appropriate for extremely close quarters interior work, but I would want a carbine for almost everything else...

Walking down a trail in the wilderness you encounter a Grizzly Bear. Which would yup rather have a 12ga loaded with slugs or a 5.56?.

Your a cop on the street you encounter a fellow high on bath salts. Which would you rather have?
The guy shooting at you is using the engine block as cover. There are a few times when the shotgun still rules

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[Arik]

If he's using the engine block for cover slugs arnt going to do much. Neither will a 5.56. This is a tactics scenario not firepower

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[jdh]

A 223 tac load hits a padlock and splatters. A 12 gauge buckshot load takes the lock and hasp off the door. Both have a place in a patrol car. Choose the one for the job at hand.

 

[S&W45Colt]

Not all Departments do or want to issue patrol rifles, therefore slugs are a part of their arsenal. Further, many Departments limit who gets rifles issued to them. Sometimes it's a budget thing, sometimes it's a liability thing due to the range of a rifle vs the limited range of a slug.

I also agree, a slug does a lot of things a .223 round can't, both have a place in a cruiser in my opinion.

 

[shouldazagged]

I also agree, a slug does a lot of things a .223 round can't, both have a place in a cruiser in my opinion.

Makes sense to me. The 1911 and .357 Magnum are "anachronistic", but they damn sure work. In some applications, so do shotgun slugs and buckshot, very well indeed.

If it's financially possible for the department, give the patrol officers both the shotgun and the carbine. I'm in favor of their having anything they need to do that hard, dangerous job protecting my decrepit derriere.

 

[J. W.]

Shotguns are still the standard in LE. Many agencies are just beginning to come around to be idea of patrol rifles; and the patrol rifle is a personal purchase option with many of those agencies.

My department has an 870 in every cruiser. We also have a program where we can qualify with personally owned shotguns and ARs. My preference is for the AR. I've got 6x the fire power in a lighter, more ergonomic, compact and accurate weapon. I'm a shotgun fan, but I'd really have to build one up myself before I'd take it over my AR.

Oh and a note about cops and shooting...despite what internet rumor and armchair commands might have you believe most of us shoot as well or better than the average "gun guy." Yep, no doubt we've got a few that couldn't hit the broad side of a barn from the inside, but they're the exception.

Maybe my department is an exception but most of us are hunters, gun guys and current or former military.


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[Ethang]

Different tools for different tasks. Yes there is much that the rifle does, however I still want that 870 with buckshot in my hands at times.

 

[slfree]

Practice its what makes you better.
Consider a simple fact. Many ranges restrict shotguns on the pistol range to slugs only. Cause some folks can't keep it to their own targets.

 

[jdh]

Oh and a note about cops and shooting...despite what internet rumor and armchair commands might have you believe most of us shoot as well or better than the average "gun guy." Yep, no doubt we've got a few that couldn't hit the broad side of a barn from the inside, but they're the exception.

As much as I want to believe that I was an instructor for too long too. Many maybe, most not.

For the duty handgun the rank and file officers go about like this:
10% are bolos on the first try.
10% qualify barely
45% Marksmen
25% Sharpshooters
10% Expert

The numbers for special teams are higher But I've seen swat guys that needed more than one try to qualify. I'm not even going to talk about the shotgun, the one I was chosen to instruct.

 

[J. W.]

As much as I want to belief that I was an instructor for too long too. Many maybe, most not.

For the duty handgun the rank and file officers go about like this:
10% are bolos on the first try.
10% qualify barely
45% Marksmen
25% Sharpshooters
10% Expert

The numbers for special teams are higher But I've seen swat guys that needed more than one try to qualify. I'm not even going to talk about the shotgun, the one I was chosen to instruct.

Actually, I think we're in agreement. I'd say your numbers are about right. 80% average to above average with around 20% that barely qualify and struggle.

I would also suggest that you're average gun owner would fall somewhere in the barely qualify - marksmen group. I try my best to avoid public ranges but on the occasions I do go to one I see a lot people blazing away and making a lot of noise without effect.

JMO, but I'd say only about 25-35% or so of gun owners (including LE) shoot regularly and are accomplished marksmen. The rest, like many I know shoot a box or two a year. Usually when hunting season is approaching.


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[CAJUNLAWYER]

All right kids let's not quibble-there's room in the play pen for both a shottie( ) and a "patrol rifle".
Sheesh....now ya'll play nice or I'll tell daddy when he gets home

Heh heh - I said "shottie" -heh heh

 

[Smithsrevenge]

The use by law enforcement agencies of shotguns and slugs vs. 5.56mm carbines, seems quite anachronistic, today. There's almost nothing of which the shotgun/slug combo is capable that isn't better handled by a compact carbine in 5.56 or similar caliber, and, better handled by officers of diminutive stature. Buckshot may be appropriate for extremely close quarters interior work, but I would want a carbine for almost everything else...

Untrue........I would rather use a nice 1oz bonded slug against a hopped up meth head any day vs a 5.56.

Guy I knew way back told me he unloaded 2 mags from his service G22 , I believe speer gold dot 180g into a meth head point blank. Guy died Ontop of him after smashing him about for a while.

When you wanna put something down HARD. 12ga is your best bet. Or a Barret 50 cal but those are harder to transport.........

 

[REM 3200]

Heh heh - I said "shottie" -heh heh

Go wash out your mouth wit water from de bayou.

 

[redlevel]

Heh heh - I said "shottie" -heh heh

Don't do that no more.

 

[Texas Star]

Untrue........I would rather use a nice 1oz bonded slug against a hopped up meth head any day vs a 5.56.

Guy I knew way back told me he unloaded 2 mags from his service G22 , I believe speer gold dot 180g into a meth head point blank. Guy died Ontop of him after smashing him about for a while.

When you wanna put something down HARD. 12ga is your best bet. Or a Barret 50 cal but those are harder to transport.........

I see these reports of people taking a whole magazine or more from a service pistol and not dropping. Where are the bullets hitting the target?! If two rounds in center mass don't stop, I think a brain shot is indicated.

I carried a revolver on duty and didn't have the luxury of spraying 15 or more rounds without result. I also think that many rounds fired looks bad to a DA or grand jury. And it may get you killed if the opponent is a decent shot or coming at you with a knife.

I do feel that cars should have both a rifle and a shotgun. Here, the officers buy their own rifles, but I think the dept. gets them a discount.

If a dangerous zoo animal has to be put down, the 12 ga. slug probably works best, if the rifle is 5.56mm. If it's a 'scope-sighted .308 or .30/06...but how many urban officeers carry rifles like that?

I thought of this after reading Massad Ayoob's account of a New York zoo shooting of a polar bear and of the wild animals that got loose after a nutty private zoo owner shot himself. What that latter incident proved about police marksmanship and target knowledge is disgraceful. I'd hate to face an African lion with a .223 carbine, but I know where to hit one. Even most cops who hunt probably don't know, and that can get someone killed. I firmly believe that public zoo personnel need to have adequate rifles on hand and be trained in where to hit various animals for a quick kill. But a lot don't want the responsibility and may even be animal huggers who won't do the job.

 

[Arik]

I see these reports of people taking a whole magazine or more from a service pistol and not dropping. Where are the bullets hitting the target?! If two rounds in center mass don't stop, I think a brain shot is indicated.

I carried a revolver on duty and didn't have the luxury of spraying 15 or more rounds without result. I also think that many rounds fired looks bad to a DA or grand jury. And it may get you killed if the opponent is a decent shot or coming at you with a knife.

I do feel that cars should have both a rifle and a shotgun. Here, the officers buy their own rifles, but I think the dept. gets them a discount.

If a dangerous zoo animal has to be put down, the 12 ga. slug probably works best, if the rifle is 5.56mm. If it's a 'scope-sighted .308 or .30/06...but how many urban officeers carry rifles like that?

I thought of this after reading Massad Ayoob's account of a New York zoo shooting of a polar bear and of the wild animals that got loose after a nutty private zoo owner shot himself. What that latter incident proved about police marksmanship and target knowledge is disgraceful. I'd hate to face an African lion with a .223 carbine, but I know where to hit one. Even most cops who hunt probably don't know, and that can get someone killed. I firmly believe that public zoo personnel need to have adequate rifles on hand and be trained in where to hit various animals for a quick kill. But a lot don't want the responsibility and may even be animal huggers who won't do the job.

People do survive many multiple shots. A few years back a guy in NY survived 20+ shots from the NYPD.

Some others ....Simo Hayha was shot in the head by a exploding 7.62x54 bullet and lived for another 50+ years

A Japanese man survived both atomic bombs at Hiroshima and Nagasaki and lived into his 90s.

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[Smithsrevenge]

People do survive many multiple shots. A few years back a guy in NY survived 20+ shots from the NYPD.

Some others ....Simo Hayha was shot in the head by a exploding 7.62x54 bullet and lived for another 50+ years

A Japanese man survived both atomic bombs at Hiroshima and Nagasaki and lived into his 90s.

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People have also survived 13000 foot falls while skydiving. The human body is tough. It can be seemingly invincible when on meth or bath salts........a 12guage slug can drop an elephant..... 5.56 can't ....I'll stick with the 12

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