That's strange. I posted them the same way I've done in the past. Is anyone able to see the pics in my previous post?
Mark
Brill-style Scabbard by Charles Kluge
- Thread starter boykinlp
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That's strange. I posted them the same way I've done in the past. Is anyone able to see the pics in my previous post?
Mark
StrawHat
Member
That's strange. I posted them the same way I've done in the past. Is anyone able to see the pics in my previous post?
Mark
Sorry Mark, all I see is a blank space.
Kevin
Okay, I think I figured out what the problem was. Are my pics visible now?
StrawHat
Member
Okay, I think I figured out what the problem was. Are my pics visible now?
Not yet.
Kevin
arabensburg
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I have recently acquired a Brill-style scabbard. Good. Congratulations. It is a beautiful design floral pattern.
It was determined by the experts that it was made by Charles Kluge of the Kluge Brothers Saddlery between 1906 and 1912. Larry, would you please name the experts and copy of their findings.
The company was a significant downtown Austin leather enterprise, being in business for 20 plus years in 1906. Yes, this is true.
By 1912, the A.W. Brill Company took over the Kluge Brothers Saddlery, but the brothers remained on as employees. Yes, this is correct.
According to Red Nichols, "Charles Kluge of Kluge Brothers was the innovator who created the style for Captain Hughes in 1906; it was long thought it was N.J. Rabensburg but period news articles put us straight on that. Larry, I not aware of any of this. If Red Nichols has changed his opinion on this matter, then it is a 180 degree reversal of what he has been saying for years to you, me and others on the Smith and Wesson Forum. Published documentation by the Stan Nelson article of 2008 on Captain Hughes in 1906 or thereabouts was with N J Rabensburg and not Charles W. Kluge. I have seen nothing to contrary. You must produce your documentation based on your "period news articles" supporting this matter or rescind your words, which are not only misleading but inflammatory since you ae stepping on my grandfather's toes.
Rabensburg likely was at Kluge Brothers saddlery as a saddle cub at that time. Larry! Untrue. There is newspaper documentation to support that Rabensburg was working in La Grange and not Austin. However, I believe he traveled to Austin on occasions as a representative of La Grange Saddle Shop. I myself have tried to link Charles W. Kluge with the Rabensburg family but with no success. Once again, please produce your documentation and do not base it on supposition.
Kluge made the scabbards, in the familiar basket weave and in that particular carving style, too, from then until 1912 when A.W. Brill bought out the Kluge Brothers saddlery. Charles W. Kluge was the artistic director for Kluge Brothers and most likely for the A. W. Brill Company until his retirement. He was gifted, which is why I am collecting Kluge holsters as well.
From then on they were the same scabbards but with the A.W. Brill stamp in the center of the leather cuff. The welt stack of these Kluge scabbards are always quite straight, the cuffs are wide, the tip ends of the cuffs are sewn to the fender in just that way, and there is just one welt inside the welt stack. I have no disagreement with the construction of a Kluge holster and am unqualified to do so.
It was in 1932 that Rabensburg joined Brill to eventually replace Charles Kluge who would die a decade later. Rabensburg changed the style of the holster and including that carving; added a second and even third welt, contoured the main welt stack, changed the hand sewing of the cuff ends, added a stitch to the open end of the welt stack." Larry, you and Red speak the same on technical matters.
I contacted some of the owners of the known Brill-style scabbards on the forum and thought a new thread should be started to limit confusion. Are the Brill-style scabbards limited to just two, that is Kluge and Rabensburg? I was not contacted and have two Kluges and one Rabensburg. There is another Rabensburg holster of mine at the Fayette Heritage Museum and Archives basket weave pattern under construction. There is a fifth basket weave holster floating around the Rabensburg family and may surface within the near future.
Hopefully, as more scabbards are identified that fit this description, they will be posted here, so we can discuss them. These scabbards are fairly easy to identify when looking at the rear and welt of the scabbard. Here are pictures of my scabbard:
Larry
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rednichols
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Neale, I am the so-called expert from which this info came. I thought you were on board with this, not least because it was you who inspired me to look for the Kluge link in the first place.
It had long bothered me and a fellow researcher who has long since left the project, that N.J. was too young to have participated in the Captain Hughes project. N.J. says in the Nelson monograph that it was created while Hughes was in Austin 1906/7, and that is verified by the Austin directory and contemporaneous articles. You have copies of all this documentation.
It is the several newspaper articles that confirm Kluge as the creator of the scabbard, to the point where at his death it is called the Kluge scabard. You have copies, I sent them to you straightaway that I found them. I thought you understood this confirmed your theory that N.J. was at Kluge Bros 1905 or so. I'm just following the breadcrumbs I find, and they lead this way.
I take full responsibility for all the research and deductions that led to the revelation from the Nelson monograph that I located (and since then, that i appeared twice in the last 25 years; Nelson has since passed away). The first of the scabbards was the Kluge with no Brill name, then the Kluge with the Brill name, and at some point the Rabensburg versions until his own death.
I put together the clues you rely on to distinguish the CK from the NR versions of the Bril. Prior no one realized there was any difference among them, nor any of the timeline. Heck, we had one at the Bianchi Museum (it appears, faintly, in the book Holsters and Other Gunleather) and took no furrther notice of it.
Second edition of Holstory is at the publisher now, and sticks to this new script. I'll follow this with several posts of the Brillalikes of the era, all by Texas makers. There is an equal number of them made without markings; I won't list them for now because they are identifiably by different makers than those that are marked.
It had long bothered me and a fellow researcher who has long since left the project, that N.J. was too young to have participated in the Captain Hughes project. N.J. says in the Nelson monograph that it was created while Hughes was in Austin 1906/7, and that is verified by the Austin directory and contemporaneous articles. You have copies of all this documentation.
It is the several newspaper articles that confirm Kluge as the creator of the scabbard, to the point where at his death it is called the Kluge scabard. You have copies, I sent them to you straightaway that I found them. I thought you understood this confirmed your theory that N.J. was at Kluge Bros 1905 or so. I'm just following the breadcrumbs I find, and they lead this way.
I take full responsibility for all the research and deductions that led to the revelation from the Nelson monograph that I located (and since then, that i appeared twice in the last 25 years; Nelson has since passed away). The first of the scabbards was the Kluge with no Brill name, then the Kluge with the Brill name, and at some point the Rabensburg versions until his own death.
I put together the clues you rely on to distinguish the CK from the NR versions of the Bril. Prior no one realized there was any difference among them, nor any of the timeline. Heck, we had one at the Bianchi Museum (it appears, faintly, in the book Holsters and Other Gunleather) and took no furrther notice of it.
Second edition of Holstory is at the publisher now, and sticks to this new script. I'll follow this with several posts of the Brillalikes of the era, all by Texas makers. There is an equal number of them made without markings; I won't list them for now because they are identifiably by different makers than those that are marked.
rednichols
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The forum allows just five images per post. All have been posted before. In error I have included the King Ranch that is noted as Kingsville Lumber, it's subsidiary; if I'd done this correctly I would've shown their later clone of the Brill scabbard:
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rednichols
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rednichols
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I also hold an equal number of scabbards that are unmarked, and yet without the identical construction to either the Kluge or the Rabensburg versions.
OP
Thanks for the clarification, Red.
Larry
Larry
rednichols
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Sure. Below the King Ranch version of the Brill -- so a brillalike -- as distinguished from their original shown in my first set of 5 images as a Kingsville Lumber (Kingsville itself was named for Captain King and Kingsville Lumber was one of his companies there; there is also the same holster marked Santa Gertrudes that was another part of his ranch holdings):
marked on its fender's backsiderednichols
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Let me add, and hopefully I can stop poking this particular fire, that Nelson's article in MWCA's newsletter states that Hughes was in Austin 1906/07. Correct as far as it goes; but actually those exact dates came from the title of the Austin city directory so he's interposed his own research (didn't come from N.J.'s interview). In fact Hughes and his men were assigned Austin mid-1905 and they left mid-1907; for Marfa.
In 1905 N.J., born late 1899, is as young as 15. This was quite a normal age to become an apprentice, which is a form of voluntary indentured servitude: room and board and only pin money for 3-4 years (both Hermann Heiser and Sam Myres served apprenticeships of that length). So if N.J. was apprenticing at LaGrange saddlery from 1905 to 1909 when he left for Dallas after apparently receiving his papers (no person then c/b employed as a 'mechanic' without them) then he wasn't in Austin at all while Hughes was.
Standard work week for apprentices and mechanics: 60 hours, both in America and in Europe. What varied between the two regions was the length of the apprenticeship -- up to 8 years in Europe -- and no form of payment at all. By 1950 N.J. himself was still working 48 hour weeks.
In 1905 N.J., born late 1899, is as young as 15. This was quite a normal age to become an apprentice, which is a form of voluntary indentured servitude: room and board and only pin money for 3-4 years (both Hermann Heiser and Sam Myres served apprenticeships of that length). So if N.J. was apprenticing at LaGrange saddlery from 1905 to 1909 when he left for Dallas after apparently receiving his papers (no person then c/b employed as a 'mechanic' without them) then he wasn't in Austin at all while Hughes was.
Standard work week for apprentices and mechanics: 60 hours, both in America and in Europe. What varied between the two regions was the length of the apprenticeship -- up to 8 years in Europe -- and no form of payment at all. By 1950 N.J. himself was still working 48 hour weeks.
OP
Wow, that is a beautiful holster! The floral carving is so deep, it almost looks 3D!
Larry
OP
I am posting something that I found that interested me. I had these in my pictures, and at the moment can't find where I got them from (I will later), so hopefully it is not a repost from this thread. I am posting it here, and since it has to do with BRILL holsters in general, in the A.W. Brill thread as well
Larry
Larry
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rednichols
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The first image is new to me and thank you for it. The other two are from my posts. I fear Neale has given up on us now over the Kluge learnings. But I've posted early and often about the update on my blog since January and he's a subscriber there. That was the purpose of the blog: to keep Holstory up to date.
Speaking of which. I'll be closing my blog within a week of sending out 750 or so notices to my subscribers that the second Ed has been published. Holstory II is now complete with every notable personage having been comprehensively identified except Ed Lewis of Lewis Holster in Los Angeles.
OP
Red, I thought I had seen the last 2 somewhere kinda recently, and I scanned both threads thinking they would be there, but didn't see them. I guess I didn't look close enough.
If you want, I will look back in my notes and find out where I got the first picture if you would like. Actually, I'll do it anyway, because I am more curious now.
Larry
OP
I just found something online that may help a little more in determining who was the first designer of the Brill holster. It has been said by some that Charles Kluge was just a superbly talented saddle maker, and how do we know for sure he made holsters. Well I found this:
Larry
https://www.austintexas.gov/edims/document.cfm?id=199534
Judges' Hill District History
Compiled by Phoebe Allen
Page 13
William and Anna Kluge, originally from Germany, owned all of Outlot 15 (just north of 16) and built their brick home facing Pearl Street about 1880. Their sons Henry T. and Charles W. Kluge established a saddle and harness business on East Sixth Street in 1886. In the 1890s Charles built a charming one-story Victorian house with a wraparound porch and gabled attic at 1801 San Gabriel; it has since been moved to Heritage Square on Bee Caves Road.
Page 31
c1880 WILLIAM KLUGE HOMESITE, 1802 Pearl (razed). Outlot 15. William and Anna Kluge, originally from Germany, built a brick home about 1880. City Lot
Register for 1890 indicates that Anna owned all of Outlot 15, with a value of $3500. The Kluges had a saloon and restaurant on Congress. The couple had three children: Henry, Charles, and Mary. By 1881, Anna lived on Pearl 'between Chestnut and Magnolia' with two of her sons, Charles and Henry. The Kluges occupied the one-story house with attic floor for several years. The wood frame Victorian home had a front porch.
Their son Henry Theodor Kluge (1859-1939), a bookkeeper, and his wife Mattie Cooper McDannell Kluge (1861-1924) are listed at 1810 Pearl (razed) in the city directories from 1905- 37. Their frame home also had a partial porch with Victorian trim. Henry first went to school in Austin then finished primary, secondary and Heidleberg University in Germany. He and his brother Charles owned the Kluge Brothers Leather & Harness Shop on Congress & 5th. Charles was the artist in leather carving; he made and decorated saddles, chaps, boots, holsters and belts. Henry managed the business and raised fine saddle horses. [see 1897 Charles Kluge House]
1802 Pearl was sold to Angeline Townsend's daughter, Pauline Townsend Culbertson (3 Dec 1854-1920?), for herself and her two children: Angeline Louise Culbertson (1889-1996) and William James 'Jamie' Culbertson Jr. (1892-?). Culbertson was listed at 1802 Pearl in the 1909- 1920 City Directories.
Page 36
1897 CHARLES KLUGE HOUSE, 1801 San Gabriel (moved). Outlot 15. Brothers Henry T. and Charles W. Kluge established a saddle and harness business on East
Sixth Street in 1886. In the 1890s they acquired land from their mother, who had lived on the opposite side of the same block at 1802 Pearl. Charles built this charming one-story Victorian house with a wraparound porch and gabled attic; it has since been moved to Heritage Square on Bee Caves Road. The L-plan house had a basement. [see William Kluge House]
Henry Theodor Kluge (1859-1939) & his wife Mattie Cooper McDannell Kluge (1861- 1924) are listed at 1810 Pearl in the city directories from 1905 through 1937. Henry first went to school in Austin then finished primary, secondary and Heidleberg University in Germany. He and his brother Charles owned the Kluge Brothers Leather & Harness Shop on Congress & 5th. Charles was the artist in leather carving; he made and decorated saddles, chaps, boots, holsters and belts. Henry managed the business and raised fine saddle horses.
Larry
https://www.austintexas.gov/edims/document.cfm?id=199534
Judges' Hill District History
Compiled by Phoebe Allen
Page 13
William and Anna Kluge, originally from Germany, owned all of Outlot 15 (just north of 16) and built their brick home facing Pearl Street about 1880. Their sons Henry T. and Charles W. Kluge established a saddle and harness business on East Sixth Street in 1886. In the 1890s Charles built a charming one-story Victorian house with a wraparound porch and gabled attic at 1801 San Gabriel; it has since been moved to Heritage Square on Bee Caves Road.
Page 31
c1880 WILLIAM KLUGE HOMESITE, 1802 Pearl (razed). Outlot 15. William and Anna Kluge, originally from Germany, built a brick home about 1880. City Lot
Register for 1890 indicates that Anna owned all of Outlot 15, with a value of $3500. The Kluges had a saloon and restaurant on Congress. The couple had three children: Henry, Charles, and Mary. By 1881, Anna lived on Pearl 'between Chestnut and Magnolia' with two of her sons, Charles and Henry. The Kluges occupied the one-story house with attic floor for several years. The wood frame Victorian home had a front porch.
Their son Henry Theodor Kluge (1859-1939), a bookkeeper, and his wife Mattie Cooper McDannell Kluge (1861-1924) are listed at 1810 Pearl (razed) in the city directories from 1905- 37. Their frame home also had a partial porch with Victorian trim. Henry first went to school in Austin then finished primary, secondary and Heidleberg University in Germany. He and his brother Charles owned the Kluge Brothers Leather & Harness Shop on Congress & 5th. Charles was the artist in leather carving; he made and decorated saddles, chaps, boots, holsters and belts. Henry managed the business and raised fine saddle horses. [see 1897 Charles Kluge House]
1802 Pearl was sold to Angeline Townsend's daughter, Pauline Townsend Culbertson (3 Dec 1854-1920?), for herself and her two children: Angeline Louise Culbertson (1889-1996) and William James 'Jamie' Culbertson Jr. (1892-?). Culbertson was listed at 1802 Pearl in the 1909- 1920 City Directories.
Page 36
1897 CHARLES KLUGE HOUSE, 1801 San Gabriel (moved). Outlot 15. Brothers Henry T. and Charles W. Kluge established a saddle and harness business on East
Sixth Street in 1886. In the 1890s they acquired land from their mother, who had lived on the opposite side of the same block at 1802 Pearl. Charles built this charming one-story Victorian house with a wraparound porch and gabled attic; it has since been moved to Heritage Square on Bee Caves Road. The L-plan house had a basement. [see William Kluge House]
Henry Theodor Kluge (1859-1939) & his wife Mattie Cooper McDannell Kluge (1861- 1924) are listed at 1810 Pearl in the city directories from 1905 through 1937. Henry first went to school in Austin then finished primary, secondary and Heidleberg University in Germany. He and his brother Charles owned the Kluge Brothers Leather & Harness Shop on Congress & 5th. Charles was the artist in leather carving; he made and decorated saddles, chaps, boots, holsters and belts. Henry managed the business and raised fine saddle horses.
bmcgilvray
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Just found this additional thread on holsters and makers from "deep in the heart of Texas." I've been repainting house trim and installing a replacement garage door lately so haven't kept up.
rednichols
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Really fabulous find. It confirms my expectation from the Kluge's census appearances, that at least Charles lived in a very wealthy neighborhood judging by the valuations of each property and the price of gold then.
I've an image of Wroe's saddle shop interior that shows as many as two dozen workers; a reminder that in that era, saddlery was big business and certainly not limited to the owner sitting in a corner making holsters and saddles. Unable to work out how to convert the image from png to jpg this time, so will have to wait to post a version that can be seen properly (png files appear on this forum as tiny thumbnails).
OP
You are absolutely right, Red. If you browse through that link, it is a who's who in early Texas history. The neighborhood was laid out by Austin's first mayor, 6 years before Texas became a state. It also has stories like I posted above for many of the residents of that neighborhood. Here is a little tidbit:
The lots inside the 1839 city plan, as well as "Outlots" beyond the "Original City" grid Edwin Waller laid out, were sold to the highest bidders.
* 1840 Edwin Waller is elected Austin's first mayor with all 187 votes. Those who purchased outlots in the future Judge's Hill neighborhood included Dr. Samuel G. Haynie, a four-time mayor of Austin, who arrived in Austin in 1839 to practice medicine and by 1950 had purchased Outlots 10, 11 and 19.
The Judges' Hill Neighborhood takes its name from the many judges and attorneys who built homes in the area, beginning in 1851 just after Austin was selected as the state capital.
Larry
