British .455 Mk II with M1917 .45 ACP Cylinder - value and shooting performance

[Cossack]

I've come across a Mk II .455 Hand Ejector that has been converted to .45 ACP by exchanging the original cylinder for one from a 1917 Model revolver.

What would be a fair price for one of these, and how might the conversion affect the reliability, timing, smoothness, and accuracy of the revolver?

 

[Muley Gil]

The 1917 cylinder is slightly shorter and may bang on the frame lug, if that part hasn't been replaced. Be aware that 1917s were heat treated, while MK II .455s weren't.

 

[StrawHat]

Cossack,

Kind of a unique revolver you have. A marriage of what may be two military revolvers of the time.

Value, not as much as pure originals of either one but how much less is anyone’s guess.

“...and how might the conversion affect the reliability, timing, smoothness, and accuracy of the revolver?...”

There we can make reasonable guesses and assumptions. All of the following is based on assembly by someone with a good understanding of S&W revolvers.

Reliability, I would say it is a S&W, so it will be reliable.

Timing, if properly fitted each chamber should carry up and lock. You can check this with a range rod down the bore for each chamber. It should enter each chamber smoothly, not catch on the “muzzle” of the cylinder.

Smoothness is dependent on who installed the cylinder. Well fitted, it will be as smooth as factory.

As pointed out by Muley Gil, the cylinder on the 1917 was hardened by reauirement of the US Army. The first so done in the S&W line.

Accuracy. I am not sure of the bore and groove dimensions of the 455 barrel. That will determine how accurate the revolver is. At least the mechanical accuracy. The real accuracy will be determined by you, your loads and your eyesight. Also, I find that if I hold my tongue in the spot where my lower left major molar used to be, my shooting improves!

Kevin

 

[Hondo44]

That's the best way to convert a 455 to 45 ACP; by using an ACP cyl because it is heat treated and the 455 cyl was not. The ACP cartridge pressure is about 30% higher than the original 455 MKII cartridge the gun's cyl was designed for.

The 455 barrel has larger bore and groove dimensions than the ACP barrel, because the 455 bullet is a larger diameter. Accuracy is usually OK, and better with 454 sized alloy bullets if you reload. Not as good with factory 'hardball' (copper jacketed) bullets. But you never know for sure until you shoot the gun.

Value is all about condition as well, so w/o a photo (and even with a photo) difficult to say. With 85% original factory blue finish A ballpark range is $500 to $800 for that converted gun, just to throw out a #.

 

[glowe]

This thread brings up a couple of questions? First, I have to ask what the difference is between a shortened 455 cylinder and a 1917 cylinder? The only thing I can think of is if it does not have a serial number, it is a shaved 455??? Is it not possible that the OP's gun simply has a shortened cylinder?? Is there a serial number on the rear of the cylinder?

Second, I always thought that the opening dimension between the rear of the barrel and the recoil shield was the same for both models, plus all other 44 Special frames as well? Why would the factory make different frames? Is it the star assembly that changes the OAL? I know that the star is always shaved along with the cylinder when using a 455 cylinder assembly to convert to 45 ACP.

Lastly, I am pretty sure that $800 is way on the high side of value for a 45 ACP converted 455. I have seen several sell recently for around $600, but of course condition comes into play as stated above. It is not a popular conversion with collectors or shooters since it often affects the performance of the revolver and the gun will no longer chamber original 455 rounds like a 45 Colt. There is also the concern about higher pressures with factory 45 ACP, so all may be a few reasons for depressed realized prices.

 

[Drm50]

No longer a collector and possibly not worth much as a shooter. I would be careful on price. I shoot .457” cast in my 455 Colt NS. I run across S&Ws and it seems they all been reamed to 45Colt or cobbled to 45acp by several methods.

 

[OFT II]

I agree that $800 is too high for a used shooter that may not shoot all that well. I would take the $800 and look around for a used 22-4.

 

[Cossack]

Based on the photos, it looks to be around 90% finish and the proper grips in good shape.

The seller says the crane aassembly as well as the cylinder itself come from a M 1917.

I'd have about $600 in it total by the time I paid shipping and my local FFL fee.

 

[tenntex32]

There are hollow base lead bullets out there that may mitigate any accuracy issues you may run into if your barrel is somewhat oversized for the typical .45acp bullet diameter.

I think they are easier and cheaper to find now than when I first bought my converted .455/45acp example.

Dale

 

[Muley Gil]

This thread brings up a couple of questions? First, I have to ask what the difference is between a shortened 455 cylinder and a 1917 cylinder? The only thing I can think of is if it does not have a serial number, it is a shaved 455??? Is it not possible that the OP's gun simply has a shortened cylinder?? Is there a serial number on the rear of the cylinder?

Second, I always thought that the opening dimension between the rear of the barrel and the recoil shield was the same for both models, plus all other 44 Special frames as well? Why would the factory make different frames? Is it the star assembly that changes the OAL? I know that the star is always shaved along with the cylinder when using a 455 cylinder assembly to convert to 45 ACP.

Lastly, I am pretty sure that $800 is way on the high side of value for a 45 ACP converted 455. I have seen several sell recently for around $600, but of course condition comes into play as stated above. It is not a popular conversion with collectors or shooters since it often affects the performance of the revolver and the gun will no longer chamber original 455 rounds like a 45 Colt. There is also the concern about higher pressures with factory 45 ACP, so all may be a few reasons for depressed realized prices.

The 1917 and the MK II .455 use the same size frame. Where did you get the idea that they were different?

 

[glowe]

The 1917 and the MK II .455 use the same size frame. Where did you get the idea that they were different?

I think I said that the dimension of the space for both models should be the same. Basically, your comment confused me: "The 1917 cylinder is slightly shorter and may bang on the frame lug, if that part hasn't been replaced." I did not understand what you meant or what was a frame lug?

 

[ddixie884]

A gun like that can be a fun shooter if the throat dimensions and timing are right. You can always shoot fat bullets even if you have to pan lube straight from the mold.

 

[glowe]

There are hollow base lead bullets out there that may mitigate any accuracy issues you may run into if your barrel is somewhat oversized for the typical .45acp bullet diameter . . .

Dale

Yes, RCBS makes a mold for the 455. I also think that some Internet bullet suppliers have them from time to time. The original bullet was about 265 grains and had a hollow base. This design was called a Man-Stopper design because of the heave weight and soft lead deformation when shot. I have been loading the 455 for years and was never that impressed with accuracy, but after buying the mold and shooting the HB bullets, there was a big improvement in accuracy. I have shown these bullets before, but below you will see Fiocchi and a reloaded 455 with the HB soft lead bullets. I also use it in my 45 ACP loads for one converted 455 that I shoot often. If anyone wants to try some, for a small charge including shipping, I can send you some of these bullets to try.

For those with original cylinder and chambers, Fiocchi is a good commercial ammunition and also HB. Price is not bad if one finds some suppliers charge $30 per box. MidwayUSA has them now, but not cheap - $40 per box.

 

[StrawHat]

I think I said that the dimension of the space for both models should be the same. Basically, your comment confused me: "The 1917 cylinder is slightly shorter and may bang on the frame lug, if that part hasn't been replaced." I did not understand what you meant or what was a frame lug?

I am not Muley Gil but the frame lug is the replaceable stud immediately below the left recoil shield. With the short cylinder of the ACP cartridge, the lug needs to be either removed and replaced with a blank stud (or appropriate piece of round stock) or removed rotated 180 degrees and replaced. Then with the new cylinder installed, a file is used to fit the lug.

I did it on a Model 28-2 I converted to 45 ACP.

Kevin

 

[Muley Gil]

I think I said that the dimension of the space for both models should be the same. Basically, your comment confused me: "The 1917 cylinder is slightly shorter and may bang on the frame lug, if that part hasn't been replaced." I did not understand what you meant or what was a frame lug?

A 1917 cylinder is shorter than a .455 cylinder, due to the larger head space.

StrawHat answered the question about the frame lug. Thanks, SH!

 

[StrawHat]

Wasn’t trying to steal your thunder but read my signature!

Kevin

 

[Muley Gil]

Wasn’t trying to steal your thunder but read my signature!

Kevin

Works for me.

 

[Oyeboteb]

Get it and find an un-modified .455 Cylinder, then sell the .45 ACP Cylinder on ebay.

Then, all will be well, in the Garden..!

 

[Oyeboteb]

I have a few 2nd Model Hand Ejectors in .455, and the Groove-to-Groove is like .457 on mine, and Cylinder Bores I think are about that also.

.45 ACP ( .452 diameter on a warm day ) Hardball will not even touch the Rifling, so if a .45 ACP Cylinder, it will go "Bang" and put a hole in Paper ( with enormous blow-by ), but, it will leave a lot to be desired once one understands it better.

At least with a 'modified' .455 Cylinder one can load right size Lead Bullets, and be a happy Camper, whether it is modified for .45 Colt, or for .45 ACP, as with these, one can expand the Cases, find right Seating and Crimp Dies for the larger .455 or .456 or .457 Bullets, and come out alright for Bullet fit to Barrel...and, then have good accuracy, and an efficient combination.

Some were modified to accept .45 Colt or .45 ACP in Half Moon Clips.

One of mine is this way, and I solved the issues by modifying .45 Colt Brass to fit full Moon Clips and this works beautifully and is a fun combination as well.

It also has .457 ish Groove to Groove and I ended up using some old .45-70 '310' IDEAL Dies for seating and Crimp.

So, one way or the other, it is best if the Cylinder can at least accept right diameter Bullets for the actual Groove-to-Groove of one's erstwhile ".455" Revolver so one can get the best out of it, and feel good about how things are with it.

 

[glowe]

Thanks you two for added comments. I think I am seeing the lug now and added a couple of pictures. Never knew what it was called, but my converted 455 still has it and it works as designed on both the 45 ACP and the 455s?? Just a bigger space. I always thought is was part of the frame forging?

Anyway, let me know if that is what you are describing. Interesting how many little things affect the functioning of these revolvers, but I am not just not seeing the need to remove that part of my converted 455??