British proof marks, 38 M&P 6", circa 1940

[guitar1580]

I'm picking this up for a nice deal, and was told that it was likely part of the pre war Lend-Lease program. When I looked that up, I learned that Lend-Lease (Public Law 77-11) was a law signed by Roosevelt on March 11, 1941, allowing the US to send 50.1 billion dollars worth of supplies to Britain, Russia, France, China, and other allies, from 1941-1945 for the war effort. $31.4 billion went to Britain. The law was signed after the outbreak of the war, and before the US entered, but it ended the US's position of being neutral.

I've read a little about the testing and marking that the British military did with firearms, and to me that history adds to the appeal of the gun.

I was just wondering what guns or general info some of you all may have about similar guns, and this program ... such as, how many guns were sent, are there company records available about it, where or how they were likely used, how they may have made it back to the US, what I could learn from specific proof marks, etc. I'll post some pics after I get it, any info would be helpful.

Josh P

 

[Oldiron]

Guitar1580,
It would depend on what s/n you are getting. Before the lend-lease came about there were several thousand pistols ordered by South Africa and Britain purchasing depts. A couple of the shipments that were supposed to go to S.A. were deverted to Britain in early 1940.
Post the s/n (you don't have to post the whole thing if you don't want to, fill the last 3-4 spaces with xxx), and what cal it is and someone here can get you real close on date. Most of the British ordered guns were .38 S&W and most of the lend-lease guns had Property of United States on them. Hope this helps.
Larry
P.S. if at all possible post some pics.

 

[Texas Star]

S&W owed the UK govt. a lot of money over a failed contract for a 9mm "light rifle" that was a loss. They arranged to provide revolvers instead. They had checkered stocks and normal blue finishes.

Yours is not one of those. Later guns were via Lend-Lease. After April, 1942, only five-inch barrels and smooth stocks were sent. These had a dull Midnight Black finish, not the earlier blue. You have one of these. Thanks for finally posting the pics. All Commonwealth countries probably used these.

South African ones are stamped with a U mark and Canadian ones have a C. I think both include a stylized arrowhead (Broad Arrow) indicating govt. ownership. This is within the C or the U. Aussie and New Zealand ones sometimes have their marks, too.

Over 568,000 were made, making it one of the most common British military handguns. Most books on S&W and many on military arms in general have this info.

 

[guitar1580]

I know they labeled them .38 S&W at the time, but I'm fairly sure I read that these are .38 specials. Is that correct?

These are the only two pics of the proof marks I have at the moment. Any info on what they stand for would be helpful. The serial # is 736XXX. Thanks for the help.

JP

 

[Texas Star]

NO, it it NOT a .38 Special! (Unless it has been rechambered to take that longer ctg.! ) And that is not a good idea, as the case is slightly slimmer than .38 S&W "regular", called .38-200 by the British, as they originally loaded a lead 200 grain bullet. That was changed over German protests against lead bullets, in 1938, the war-issue ammo having a 178 grain FMJ bullet. Velocity is quite low, about 600 FPS.

If your gun has been rechambered, a .38 Special will chamber, but the case may swell and crack on firing. This re-chambering was done by unethical postwar surplus dealers trying to peddle guns for a more popular load. DO NOT fire Plus P .38 Special ammo, even it fits.

Determine if the gun is in original .38 S&W caliber, and leave it alone. Those guns are desired by British martial collectors, and too many were indeed altered. Originals in nice shape will grow in value.




You do not have a practical modern revolver for defense or sport shooting. You do have a historical item worth collecting or selling to someone who does value it in that role.

Your gun is one of the roughest that I've seen, at least in regard to the bad to
On second thought, the marks on the extractor may be due to roughness within the yoke, where the rod moves in use. That may be polished out now from wear, or a GOOD gunsmith could lightly polish that area.
oling marks on the extractor rod. These usually were better finished. You can probably find a spare rod and swap it out, but
that might require fitting. Not sure. If you do that, keep the old rod, in case a future owner might want it, to be absolutely authentic and original.

I've edited this above paragraph three times. Just read it and see what I mean. The Cut and Paste are messing up, and I'm out of time!



And read some books before you buy any more guns that you don't know much about. You can avoid bad buys and be safer. I hope to gosh that your cylinder hasn't been re-chambered. If not, you have a solid collectible item, for the right person. .38 S&W ammo is available, but harder to find and expensive, and bullet weight will be 145-146 grains, so the gun may not shoot to the sights. You can handload to correct that, but few will, unless they are pretty dedicated enthusiasts.

 

[deadin]

The marks you show are British Commercial proofs. They mean that the gun was sold commercially from a Brit dealer. Many Lend Lease guns and regular issue guns were released from government stores after the war and British Proof laws require that all guns sold commercially be proofed before sale to the public. Many of these were exported to the U.S. by commercial companies like Parker-Hale and others.

 

[guitar1580]

Thanks for the info Texas Star. I didn't buy the gun yet, but am considering it. Is the gun you are talking about the K-200? If so, how do I distinguish that from the 1905 4th change. Does that finish in the pics look like the black finish?

The seller lists it as a 1905, 4th change, and said that it's marked .38 S&W, but that the Brits used them with .38 special, and that the pressure testing is done for .38 spcl loads, etc. I dont know the dealer well enough to know if he knows what he's talking about, so I assume he may not. There are no "US Property" markings on it.

Here's where I'm getting confused about the rounds, so please bear with me. I have a 33-1 which takes the .38 SW (short). The 33-1 has a cylinder length of 1.4 inches. The K-200 and 1905 4th change both show the cylinder length as 1.56".

I thought I read that all of the K frame M&P's were safe to shoot .38 specials, although maybe not +P recommended. I like this gun, but if it's the one designed for the 200gr short, or if it was re chambered, I'll likely not purchase it.

Thanks, any info to clarify will be greatly appreciated.

JP

 

[Gatorbaiter]

"Battle of Britain" S&W HE 1st mdl 32-20 SN 117 originally shipped on 3/6/1899 (1st month of production) to P.R. Bekeart & Co. San Francisco, CA. Later sent to Britain and somehow made it's way back to the US!

 

[guitar1580]

Very nice Gator. Thx for sharing.

I decided to wait for a .38 spcl at this point, so I did not get the one I was looking at. I do think the British marked guns are interesting, and will hopefully own one in the future, as well as a Victory. I love the war period guns, especially the ones that can be tracked, and somewhat figured out. Thx for the help folks.

JP

 

[mred123]

I realize this is an old thread but after doing some research I came to this thread...
Texas Star writes... "Determine if the gun is in original .38 S&W caliber, and leave it alone. Those guns are desired by British martial collectors, and too many were indeed altered. Originals in nice shape will grow in value."...

How would you determine if it was am original 38 special and not reamed?? thanks

 

[DWalt]

It actually is a Model 1905, 4th Change. Just in a different caliber. The easiest way to determine if the chambers have been reamed is to see if a .38 Special case or cartridge can be completely inserted. If not, it would not have been rechambered.

I have never had any problem in firing .38 Special ammunition in a converted chamber, but the fired cases will be swelled at the rear. It is not dangerous. You can also fire .38 S&W ammunition in those chambers assuming you can find any. It is available but pricey.

As stated, a reamed chamber essentially destroys any collector value.

 

[mred123]

Thanks Dwalt for your answer...
38 special fits all the way in...SO...Does this mean that it has to be reamed since it has Brit proofs...or could it have been made for the Brits in a 38 S&W caliber...Someone on another thread that I posted [not knowing if anyone would read this thread] said it could have been sent to England??

 

[gordonrick]

When they reamed the chambers, some did a good job and others didn't. I had a reamed Brit Victory that had a .38 special barrel swapped in that was a great shooter, but did bulge the .38 special cases. I have heard of them splitting, but never seen it personally. Only after I had the gun out to the range later on did I notice that the barrel was about 5 degrees shy from top dead center. But it shot a tight, albeit offset, group.
This is what the reamed cylinders look like. You can see the faint ring from the original bore.

 

[Texas Star]

Many of those guns have British proof marks for .38 Special, and the caliber marking on the right of the barrel has been altered.

But some may have been altered here with no new proof marks required. If the .38 Special fits, don't buy the gun.

The story of the British .38's is well told in most books about WWII small arms and in every S&W reference book, and you can go to Gunboards.com and post in the British Gun Pub there, to reach collectors. Geoffrey Boothroyd's, "The Handgun" has plenty on this, too. It is a massive work, which every handgun enthusiast should own.

Find another gun dealer. The one who told you the British issued these in .38 Special is either misinformed, guessing, or is a crook. Most gun dealers are like car dealers: they'll tell you whatever it takes to make a sale.

Some S&W .38 Specials were sent to the UK in 1940, many contributed by private citizens. These mostly went to the Home Guard, and were marked on the barrel with red paint, to distinguish them as being chambered for an unusual (for the Brit armed forces) cartridge. These were NOT among the guns bought by the British military or furnished via Lend-Lease.

I'm blue in the face from repeating info on the British .38-200 guns. This comes up here about every week. It's almost as routine a topic as, "Can I Shoot Plus P In This?"

Alas, even some members offering info on them don't know much. Skip a movie and buy a book! Most movies today are lousy, anyway.

 

[mred123]

Thanks everyone for the info...
And Texas Star...I will avid buying this one...

 

[austintexas]

I picked up a 1939 era M&P target with a 6 inch barrel that had been sent to England. I think it was in a shipment of 1000 M&P targets shipped in 1940. It was still marked .38 Special but the cylinder had been reamed to take .38 S&W. I shoot both rounds in it and the accuracy seems to be about the same with eather cartridge.

SWCA 892

 

[DWalt]

I picked up a 1939 era M&P target with a 6 inch barrel that had been sent to England. I think it was in a shipment of 1000 M&P targets shipped in 1940. It was still marked .38 Special but the cylinder had been reamed to take .38 S&W. I shoot both rounds in it and the accuracy seems to be about the same with eather cartridge. SWCA 892

The accuracy would probably be pretty good as compared to the reverse conversion, as the larger-diameter .38 S&W bullet would simply squeeze down a little and fit the .38 S&W barrel tightly. I have heard of such rechamberings of .38 Special revolvers, but have never never seen one. Too bad so many of those guns sent to England when a German invasion was expected any day were destroyed afterwards.

 

[walnutred]

Sometimes 38 Special cylinders were installed. Did the ser. no. on the cylinder match the frame?