Bulk reloading .223 for a hungry AR...

[Maximumbob54]

How the heck do people do it??? I learned the hard way that case lubing with Hornady One Shot leads to stuck cases so that isn’t the trick. Looking beyond the fact that the cases need to be at least close to the same length which means needing to figure what is a faster system than hand cranking them… They still have to be full length sized each time for them to slide in and out of AR chambers since all you have is the buffer spring to close the bolt… Right??? So even if I dilute some case lube in some alcohol and spray the cases, I still don’t see how guys are doing this in progressive press setups and not having all sorts of problems. And was I the last one to learn that these darn Federal cases have the primers crimped in place??? I crushed three primers before I finally just stopped turning more hair gray and pulling the rest of it out. Now I have a RCBS primer pocket swaging die in my wish list. That’s a whole extra step to have to take now. I know you only have to do it the one time, but I’m shocked at the amount of crimped in primers on this small stash of range pick up brass. What are the recommended tools and steps to complete this task? Or is this just one of those things that there are no cheats for like using carbide dies on handgun brass??? I feel like someone is going to tell me there really isn’t a Santa Claus on this one…

 

[Hobie1]

I feel your pain(lower lip quivering ). I bought 2000 new Lake City 5.56 cases and spent a lot of time making sure that they all are uniform. I can't imagine having to go to the additional effort to swage the primer pocket. I can get about 75-100 rounds an hour on my 550b without hurrying and taking time to check out a round every now and then to make sure the powder is spot on and primers seated correctly. So far the rounds have worked quite well in my Sporter.

That all being said, I'm beginning to see why some folks say to heck with the re-loading and spend their money on bulk buys of loaded rounds. Even with already having the powders and primers on hand, the re-loads are initially more expensive. But, I enjoy re-loading. I find it relaxing(most of the time).

Good luck to you in what ever direction you pursue.

Hobie

 

[growr]

There is a certain amount of processing that you need to do on brass with crimped primer pockets. Swaging with a swaging tool from Dillon or RCBS does a great job and only needs to be done once. Small quantities can be done with a Wilson champhering tool.

As far as One Shot Spray lube I have used 50 cans of it if I have used one with great results. I put a quantity of casings into a ziplock bag, spray the heck out of them and them tumble around for a while and then size them until they start to feel like they need more lube and repeat the process.

(If I am out of One Shot, I then use Imperial Sizing wax and then tumble the brass after sizing and trim to length.)

After sizing, I trim to length and check with a Dillon case gauge. Once my brass is all processed, I can then run it through my Dillon 550 and make great amounts of ammo in a short amount of time.

Hope something here helps...

Randy

 

[Maximumbob54]

If I keep using the alcohol diluted case lube then how much can be inside the case before the powder is contaminated??? The stuff is water based so it can’t be much. But even if that isn’t a risk, the cases are still nasty and sticky. I can throw them in the corn cob and let the bits chew it off I guess. I’m looking pretty hard at the Little Crow Gunworks power trimmer since it looks much faster than anything by hand. While I am not seeing many reviews, the ones I am seeing sound positive. I think chucking that thing in Harbor Freight’s finest drill press would be about as fast as I’m going to get with trimming. So I would use the primer pocket swage die on all of them to get them uniform. Spray lube them, full length size them, wash the bulk of slime off and then tumble clean them, power trim them, and then they would be ready to box up for the actual reloading… My initial thought as to die setup is:
Station One – empty
Prime is between station one and two on the LNL AP
Station Two – case activated powder drop (I would only do this with a ball powder like Win 748, 760, or similar since when I tried Varget, it didn’t even like to be poured into the tiny case mouth with a funnel… the funnel had to be tapped once or twice for it to all fall inside; IMR 3031 was exactly the same PITA)
Station three – bullet seating die
Station four – Lee FCD (I love the rifle version so much that I’m buying Ranch Dog’s special order rifle versions for revolver case crimping)
Station five – empty

I could at some point add a case feeder and bullet feeder and that would take up a hole and speed things up. But I just see no way of speeding up the initial case processing before it can go into the progressive press. I’m just glad that I can remove the bolt from all of my AR’s and a reloaded case slips right in each chamber without being too tight or too sloppy. So I have no need of small base dies.

So far, that is the current plan. Flaws? Improvements?

 

[growr]

Money well spent would be to acquire a case gauge from Dillon, Wilson etc. I have one for every caliber I reload and it has been a real time saver for me. The gauge also helps in getting the shoulder set correctly.

If you want to dispense with all of the prep. work, there are many outlets that will sell you brass that is sized, trimmed to length and has the primer pocket swaged and polished.

Once you have fired it however, you still need to lube, re-size, trim to length, etc. before running it through the press.

I am using Dillon dies and have since 1988. they certainly do the job for me. The Lee FCD is not needed in my opinion. Small base dies ARE worth the investment if you don't already have correct dies.

I don't see it as a big deal to tumble your brass after sizing and trimming to clean the lube off.

Welcome to the world of reloading! Now the question of the day is,

" Do you shoot so that you can reload or do you reload so that you can shoot?

Randy

 

[Maximumbob54]

Money well spent would be to acquire a case gauge from Dillon, Wilson etc. I have one for every caliber I reload and it has been a real time saver for me. The gauge also helps in getting the shoulder set correctly.

I just use the chamber of what I'm loading for. I pull my 1911 barrel all the time to make sure I'm setting the cast bullets just right before commiting to the run of ammo.

If you want to dispense with all of the prep. work, there are many outlets that will sell you brass that is sized, trimmed to length and has the primer pocket swaged and polished.

Bite your tongue!!! (buying ready made is for the masses...)
Once you have fired it however, you still need to lube, re-size, trim to length, etc. before running it through the press.

I'm just trying to be sure I'm not being dumb and doing this the most time consuming labor intensive way possible. If you can't tell, I tend to over think things sometimes.

I am using Dillon dies and have since 1988. they certainly do the job for me. The Lee FCD is not needed in my opinion. Small base dies ARE worth the investment if you don't already have correct dies.

It's my understanding you may need small base dies if you have a tight chamber or your auto loader won't push them all the say in. My cousin's BAR is like that. The ammo I test made dropped right in and pulled out with my finger nail.

I don't see it as a big deal to tumble your brass after sizing and trimming to clean the lube off.

It's not. Once again, I just want to be sure I'm not missing some easy fix. I really thought the One Shot would be the easy road. No easy road... yet.

Welcome to the world of reloading! Now the question of the day is,

" Do you shoot so that you can reload or do you reload so that you can shoot?

Randy

I reload because I'm addicted!!!!

 

[Ron H.]

How the heck do people do it??? I learned the hard way that case lubing with Hornady One Shot leads to stuck cases so that isn’t the trick. Looking beyond the fact that the cases need to be at least close to the same length which means needing to figure what is a faster system than hand cranking them… They still have to be full length sized each time for them to slide in and out of AR chambers since all you have is the buffer spring to close the bolt… Right??? So even if I dilute some case lube in some alcohol and spray the cases, I still don’t see how guys are doing this in progressive press setups and not having all sorts of problems. And was I the last one to learn that these darn Federal cases have the primers crimped in place??? I crushed three primers before I finally just stopped turning more hair gray and pulling the rest of it out. Now I have a RCBS primer pocket swaging die in my wish list. That’s a whole extra step to have to take now. I know you only have to do it the one time, but I’m shocked at the amount of crimped in primers on this small stash of range pick up brass. What are the recommended tools and steps to complete this task? Or is this just one of those things that there are no cheats for like using carbide dies on handgun brass??? I feel like someone is going to tell me there really isn’t a Santa Claus on this one…

Sir, as you suspect, there's no free lunch. Case prep is the single most time-consuming part of reloading bottleneck rifle cartridges. There are ways to speed things up, but speed costs money.

There are a number of power cases trimmers on the market, the ones I'm most familiar with being the Gracey and the Giraud. Both work well and are quite expensive. They're popular with high-power competitors, who need both volume and accuracy. Dillon used to have a similar product (and may still) that also was costly, but could be installed at a station on the press. I understand there are some cheaper power trimmers available today, but I don't know much about them.

Removing crimps from primer pockets is most quickly done with a countersink or case mouth deburring tool chucked in a drill press. Very cheap if you already have a drill press, but not if you don't. I've tried the RCBS swager thing and don't like it. Dillon has one that's supposed to be better, but I haven't tried it. Last I checked, it was about $100.

I personally dislike spray case lubes--they seem to lube everything except the case, and their speed advantage goes away the instant you stick a case, which you almost certainly will. I just use Imperial wax and resign myself to being there a while.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Lake City brass will drive you the rest of the way crazy Bob!

I have a suggestion: Why not take on another project while you are working on the 5 you have going now! hahahahahaha

That ought to get the rest of your hair turned gray or turned loose! hahahaha


At any rate, I full length size all of my cases on a single stage press first and then run them through the XL650. If I have a bunch of crimped primer pockets, then I get the Dillon tool out and go at it.

The case will need trimmed after a reload or two and there is no real good way to check that on a progressive. If you can get the Lee crimp die, length plays a lot less part in the crimping part. It is a collet die that is activated by the shell plate. It works really good!

Stuck cases? You have no idea! I use the RCBS II lube on a pad and Imperial Sizing Wax on the inside of the neck, applied by a pistol cleaning rod with a 223 brush on it. That stuff works good in that app, not on the outside though!

 

[medalguy]

I reload tons of 5.56 for my M16. It's a real "eater".

My process is to deprime on an RCBS Rockchucker press with an RCBS Univeral depriming tool, easy and won't break depriming pins. Then size and trim using the Dillon 1200 trimmer also on the Rockchucker. Fast and easy and I use Imperial lube here. I also trim military brass to 1.750 the first time and I get 5 reloadings before it needs to be trimmed again and I just toss it at that point, figuring I've gotten my money's worth. I've never had a case head separation doing this either.

Next I swage the brass with the Dillon swager, also fast and easy. Finally I prime the brass using an RCBS Autoprime mounted on my bench. I use this tool because I can feel the primer seating, and in the event one doesn't seat properly it's a lot easier to fix it than remove it from the 550 during the progressive work.

Next I go to my Dillon to charge, seat, and crimp the bullet. Yes all the prep work takes a lot of time but I get excellent ammo, have no worries about high primers, and most of the work only has to be done once.

 

[Rangerjoe2]

I've had 2 stuck cases with One shot. What I found out is that it was more my issue than the one shot's. It says on the can to shake WELL, and they mean freakin' well.

There is a website that shows some video's of their users loading .223 on progressive presses. There is a couple of good videos that show how to prep brass on the press then set it up to load. I believe it's a hornady press they are using. They are using the Dillion power trimmer that mounts to the press as well. I'll look for the site and post a link if I can find it.

I'm getting ready to load .223 on my Lee Loadmaster and plan on sizing on my single stage, then trimming, then primeing-charging-seating on my progressive.

 

[jkc]

This thread has already given me a low-level headache. If there's anything more tedious than rifle case prep, I've yet to encounter it --- I'd rather mow the lawn, do my federal income taxes, clean out the garage, almost anything other than case prep. But, how else can one afford to run evil black rifles except by reloading? Thankfully, there's still cheap .22 rimfire...

 

[bopilar]

I very seldom trim brass and for crimped primers I use the Hornady Primer Pocket Reamer Tool chucked in my drill. I have to wear a glove (one of those fishing type ones) in order to hold onto the brass and not cut my hands (I learned that the hard way). For case lube I've been using the cheap food spray (PAM, etc) from Walmart. It's cheap and works great. It's a little messier than One shot but I clean in my tumbler after removing the crimp anyway.

 

[Maximumbob54]

Sir, as you suspect, there's no free lunch. Case prep is the single most time-consuming part of reloading bottleneck rifle cartridges. There are ways to speed things up, but speed costs money.

There are a number of power cases trimmers on the market, the ones I'm most familiar with being the Gracey and the Giraud. Both work well and are quite expensive. They're popular with high-power competitors, who need both volume and accuracy. Dillon used to have a similar product (and may still) that also was costly, but could be installed at a station on the press. I understand there are some cheaper power trimmers available today, but I don't know much about them.

Removing crimps from primer pockets is most quickly done with a countersink or case mouth deburring tool chucked in a drill press. Very cheap if you already have a drill press, but not if you don't. I've tried the RCBS swager thing and don't like it. Dillon has one that's supposed to be better, but I haven't tried it. Last I checked, it was about $100.

I personally dislike spray case lubes--they seem to lube everything except the case, and their speed advantage goes away the instant you stick a case, which you almost certainly will. I just use Imperial wax and resign myself to being there a while.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.

What was it about the RCBS primer pocket swage tool/die that you didn't like? I was going to put that into the next order, but I'm willing to listen to advice if there is something lacking about it.

Lake City brass will drive you the rest of the way crazy Bob!

I have a suggestion: Why not take on another project while you are working on the 5 you have going now! hahahahahaha

That ought to get the rest of your hair turned gray or turned loose! hahahaha


At any rate, I full length size all of my cases on a single stage press first and then run them through the XL650. If I have a bunch of crimped primer pockets, then I get the Dillon tool out and go at it.

The case will need trimmed after a reload or two and there is no real good way to check that on a progressive. If you can get the Lee crimp die, length plays a lot less part in the crimping part. It is a collet die that is activated by the shell plate. It works really good!

Stuck cases? You have no idea! I use the RCBS II lube on a pad and Imperial Sizing Wax on the inside of the neck, applied by a pistol cleaning rod with a 223 brush on it. That stuff works good in that app, not on the outside though!

I have the Lee FCD for .223 and it makes and outstanding crimp. I keep it right at a medium crimp that actually does look just like a factory amount of crimp. Since I got all ham handed on the stem from the die when I pounded out the stuck case, I had to order a new stem. I'm sure Lee would have hooked me up, but this wasn't their fault and I don't like to make someone else pay for my mistakes. BUT... The new stem is a different design! The package said something about trying a new version and I think it might make for a good idea:

New on the right, old on the left. The old one has a pressed in pin for punching primers out while the new one is one solid piece of steel. I need to take a pic of the package and just let it explain itself. Tonight when I get home at some point. Set back in the collet and away I went at the rest of the 25 cases. It worked like a champ. Now to see how the one piece milled pin holds up...

I reload tons of 5.56 for my M16. It's a real "eater".

My process is to deprime on an RCBS Rockchucker press with an RCBS Univeral depriming tool, easy and won't break depriming pins. Then size and trim using the Dillon 1200 trimmer also on the Rockchucker. Fast and easy and I use Imperial lube here. I also trim military brass to 1.750 the first time and I get 5 reloadings before it needs to be trimmed again and I just toss it at that point, figuring I've gotten my money's worth. I've never had a case head separation doing this either.

Next I swage the brass with the Dillon swager, also fast and easy. Finally I prime the brass using an RCBS Autoprime mounted on my bench. I use this tool because I can feel the primer seating, and in the event one doesn't seat properly it's a lot easier to fix it than remove it from the 550 during the progressive work.

Next I go to my Dillon to charge, seat, and crimp the bullet. Yes all the prep work takes a lot of time but I get excellent ammo, have no worries about high primers, and most of the work only has to be done once.

You just made me look up the Dillon Super Swage 600 and so far I like what I see. I will have to read up some more on this one. I'm still prefering the drill chuck versions of the case trimmers but that Dillon version does look pretty good.

I've had 2 stuck cases with One shot. What I found out is that it was more my issue than the one shot's. It says on the can to shake WELL, and they mean freakin' well.

There is a website that shows some video's of their users loading .223 on progressive presses. There is a couple of good videos that show how to prep brass on the press then set it up to load. I believe it's a hornady press they are using. They are using the Dillion power trimmer that mounts to the press as well. I'll look for the site and post a link if I can find it.

I'm getting ready to load .223 on my Lee Loadmaster and plan on sizing on my single stage, then trimming, then primeing-charging-seating on my progressive.

I would love to say I know I shook that can long enough, but who knows... Hornady didn't become a big player by making junk, but I shook the can for a while and followed the directions. And I didn't limp wrist shake the can either. I'm bad about keeping aerosol cans for too long and I know to shake the heck out of them before using. So I kind of just shake everything pretty hard for what I feel is enough time and then spray. I did the same for this. Epic fail.

This thread has already given me a low-level headache. If there's anything more tedious than rifle case prep, I've yet to encounter it --- I'd rather mow the lawn, do my federal income taxes, clean out the garage, almost anything other than case prep. But, how else can one afford to run evil black rifles except by reloading? Thankfully, there's still cheap .22 rimfire...

I'm doing my best to keep a level head since I already got all stupid and ruined my die with a steel hammer. (Duh, wipes drool of face) But prep work with anything done right makes for better results. And the proper tool is just smarter than sticking with the same old thing. This is one of those rare times where the old "If it ain't broke then don't fix it" doesn't fully apply. I'm willing to dish out some extra cash as long as it doesn't just save me time but also works better.

I very seldom trim brass and for crimped primers I use the Hornady Primer Pocket Reamer Tool chucked in my drill. I have to wear a glove (one of those fishing type ones) in order to hold onto the brass and not cut my hands (I learned that the hard way). For case lube I've been using the cheap food spray (PAM, etc) from Walmart. It's cheap and works great. It's a little messier than One shot but I clean in my tumbler after removing the crimp anyway.

I had not even thought of trying a non stick cooking spray. That sounds silly at first thought, but I bet it does work. And I already have to wash off the RCBS Case Lube 2 so adding a shot of Dawn wouldn't be much different. And some Great Value cooking spray would be dirt cheap... May have to give that one a try.

I tried the RCBS case prep station and I'm just going to be ugly and admit I thought it was junk. You pay all this money and you get a plastic blow mold lump that has a way under powered motor and the thing just screamed cheap China cheesey. But that's just my opinion as I'm sure there are plenty that think it's just the greatest thing and they should paint their children RCBS green since they are so happy. I'm of the mind that I either want a high speen cutter that you don't have to lean into for it to cut the brass or a nice swage type tool that has some good leverage and support. I don't know why I went all nuts on the case prep station. I just really didn't like that thing.

Thanks to all that have posted so far. I hope I'm not the only one getting something from this.

EDIT: Photobucket is being a pain in my backside. I can't upload the pic I took of the packaging on the new part. They are calling it the "Easy X Expander". It is supposed to be one solid piece of milled high carbon steel. I just sized and deprimed another eighty cases that I lubed with the RCBS Case Lube 2 mixed with the alcohol from a sprayer. It worked like a dream. There was not the slightest bit of resistance in any way besides the normal working of the case. I hope they make this the new standard.

 

[growr]

I've had the Dillon case swager since 1988 and have processed hundreds of thousands of casings in .233, .308 & 30-06. It is fast easy and VERY consistent and some of the very best money I have spent on a piece of reloading gear. The same with my Dillon dies....You will NOT regret it!

In no time at all your will have your own system of handling your case prep and soon will become no big deal.

Randy

 

[Mack]

How are you lubing the cases? It is important to get some lube on the inside of the case neck, I put mine in the plastic trays 9 mm handgun ammo comes in so they are upright and then spray them down. I used to use the one shot but now use the Dillon, I like the squirt bottle better than the aerosol can.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Bob,
The other reason that that pin will work better is that it restricts how much the neck gets sized down. With the recess of the other, older pin, the ID could go much, much, smaller causing more pressure to be needed to withdraw it. That would be the point in the process that would cause the whole, stuck case problem!

Pretty cool though. Imperial Sizing Wax on the inside of the neck will greatly help. Also, use it sparingly. Too much is as bad as none. Dented cases around the shoulder will happen if you have too much on the outside too. What I do is simply turn my case nose down, stick the very rim of it in the wax and remove. Ready to size.

I have a thread around here somewhere about sizing lubes. Might have to do a search. I now I used the Pam thing. I do contract machine control service work for the company that bottles it, or did bottle it. Scratch and dent store is your friend! They had one right on site and I could get it for 50 cents a large can.

At any rate, look around the house for other things that you can use for your firearms. Many useful things are laying right at your fingertips.

 

[Maximumbob54]

How are you lubing the cases? It is important to get some lube on the inside of the case neck, I put mine in the plastic trays 9 mm handgun ammo comes in so they are upright and then spray them down. I used to use the one shot but now use the Dillon, I like the squirt bottle better than the aerosol can.

Bob,
The other reason that that pin will work better is that it restricts how much the neck gets sized down. With the recess of the other, older pin, the ID could go much, much, smaller causing more pressure to be needed to withdraw it. That would be the point in the process that would cause the whole, stuck case problem!

Pretty cool though. Imperial Sizing Wax on the inside of the neck will greatly help. Also, use it sparingly. Too much is as bad as none. Dented cases around the shoulder will happen if you have too much on the outside too. What I do is simply turn my case nose down, stick the very rim of it in the wax and remove. Ready to size.

I have a thread around here somewhere about sizing lubes. Might have to do a search. I now I used the Pam thing. I do contract machine control service work for the company that bottles it, or did bottle it. Scratch and dent store is your friend! They had one right on site and I could get it for 50 cents a large can.

At any rate, look around the house for other things that you can use for your firearms. Many useful things are laying right at your fingertips.

I just tried some advice and mixed a ten to one isopropyl alcohol to water based case lube and sprayed it over the cases. I filled an RCBS loading block and made sure some got in from the top. WOW. That worked great!!! And that new part from Lee was awesome. I now have eighty cases to trim and clean. Ugh...

 

[fredj338]

The thing with OneSHot is following directions exactly. Shake it well, spray it on & LET IT DRY. Most stuck cases come from guys trying to size when th OS is wet. I use it on 308 in my 550B. I am going to start reloading 223 as well & bought the RCBS 'X' die to elimnate trimming. I cheated & bougth 1K once fired/prepped brass to start but have had a RCBS pocket swager for years. It's slow, but works fine on any ss press.

 

[jepp2]

I'm kinda like medalguy. My process:
- deprime using a universal depriming die since crimped primers are harder to knock out and some flash holes are smaller on strange types of military brass.
- I swage the primer pocket using and RCBS swager. I have swaged well over 20K rounds on mine and never bent the rod, but some folks struggle to get it set up correctly and never master it. But even with the Dillon (mine sits unused in the box) you need to sort by headstamp and adjust for web thickness.
- I tumble in fine walnut hull media with some OMS (odorless mineral spirits) to clean the brass.
- I use synthetic motor oil now for my case lube. Using a RockChucker I can lube and size 750 cases per hour. I have used the original RCBS lube, Lee lube, Imperial and while all work, the oil I have found is much faster, makes sizing easier, doesn't dent cases, and comes off easier.
- Back in the tumbler to remove the case lube.
- Trim them and chamfer inside and out.

Now they are good for at least 5 loadings without having to worry about trimming again. Setting the sizing die for the correct amount of shoulder bump is essential. And if you aren't using something to measure the shoulder, you are probably doing it WRONG. Trust me, I learned the hard way. Lots of ways to do it correctly, but relying on the die set up instructions just doesn't get it done.

After the prep I prime with an RCBS autoprime on my bench. Now they are ready to run through my Dillon 550B and come out ready to fire!

 

[Maximumbob54]

I'm kinda like medalguy. My process:
- deprime using a universal depriming die since crimped primers are harder to knock out and some flash holes are smaller on strange types of military brass.
- I swage the primer pocket using and RCBS swager. I have swaged well over 20K rounds on mine and never bent the rod, but some folks struggle to get it set up correctly and never master it. But even with the Dillon (mine sits unused in the box) you need to sort by headstamp and adjust for web thickness.
- I tumble in fine walnut hull media with some OMS (odorless mineral spirits) to clean the brass.
- I use synthetic motor oil now for my case lube. Using a RockChucker I can lube and size 750 cases per hour. I have used the original RCBS lube, Lee lube, Imperial and while all work, the oil I have found is much faster, makes sizing easier, doesn't dent cases, and comes off easier.
- Back in the tumbler to remove the case lube.
- Trim them and chamfer inside and out.

Now they are good for at least 5 loadings without having to worry about trimming again. Setting the sizing die for the correct amount of shoulder bump is essential. And if you aren't using something to measure the shoulder, you are probably doing it WRONG. Trust me, I learned the hard way. Lots of ways to do it correctly, but relying on the die set up instructions just doesn't get it done.

After the prep I prime with an RCBS autoprime on my bench. Now they are ready to run through my Dillon 550B and come out ready to fire!

I set up the Lee die exactly the way the instructions said. I think it was lower the die body until it touches the shell holder, and then give the die body another half turn. I may not be saying it right, but whatever the instructions said is what I did. What are you using to measure the shoulder???

I'm just going to assume that the guys using oils or greases as case lube have two or more tumblers they use. One for the case lube, and a different one for the case polishing. It seems like lube in your media wouldn't work so great for case polishing. I'm using the corn cob with a shot of Nu Finish and my guess is cleaning the oil or grease of with the same stuff would really junk up the corn cob.