fredj338
Member
Many guns have been kb with ammo made ona ss press. It is always the process & nut pulling the handle. Some people can't reload, they do 't have the focus & attention to detail. That is why there is factory ammo.
Increasing Reloading Speed
- Thread starter cds43016
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Many guns have been kb with ammo made ona ss press. It is always the process & nut pulling the handle. Some people can't reload, they do 't have the focus & attention to detail. That is why there is factory ammo.
I know reloading can dangerous but I don’t fear it at all. I do, however, respect it and have been enjoying it as a hobby since 1970. Knock on wood, I have never produced a bad load or had a safety problem. Safety is always first.
Your right about the human element being the major variable. Reloading requires concentration to be safe. You should make sure you are not preoccupied or in a hurry and your equipment is maintained and safety systems on the equipment is not disabled or bypassed when reloading. At the very least, always wear safety glasses when reloading and shooting.
Oh by the way, please wear seat belts when you drive. They are there for your safety and in most states it's against the law to drive without them. A helmet is optional.
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Triggernosis
Member
What supposedly caused the primers to go off?
It's the process, not the press
The only time I have had a primer detonation is with brass that had a crimped primer pocket when I missed removing the crimp. It has happened 4 or 5 times on my Dillon 450 or 550. Also it happened one time on a Dillon 650 with 45 ACP brass that had a crimped primer pocket. In all events it was a single primer, there was no chain reaction.
CDS4306, your reloading methods are very safe but will be very difficult to increase your production rate because of the number of times you handle an individual piece of brass. Priming "off press", cleaning each primer pocket, individual inspection at each stage are time consuming that reduces your production rate. Your overriding concern is absolute safety, not a high production rate.
The unspoken fact in most of these threads is, "We trust our progressive machines to load acceptable ammo at 400 to 800 rounds per hour without excessive hands-on visual checking." To stay in your 'safety and comfort zone', you want to perform those checks. Your reloading process is very time intensive.
I've been reloading since 1974, used Dillon progressive presses since 1981, and simply trust my presses to do the functions accurately and safely because of their design. I haven't cleaned a primer pocket since 1978 since I proved to myself that it didn't reduce my group sizes. I'm not an extreme precision benchrest shooter or a perfectionist. I don't use maximum load powder charges so there is no need to weigh every powder charge. My process works for me, but I know you could never be comfortable using my method. I can't imagine using your process for just 5 test rounds.
To increase your production rate, you have to change your process, not go to a progressive reloading press. Your process eliminates any increased efficiency inherent in the design of a progressive press. Any changes to your process will take you out of your safety comfort zone. Just save your money and continue your reloading process with the press you now use.
I'm not attacking you or criticizing your reloading methods. To increase your production rate, you need to change your process, not buy a "faster" progressive reloading press.
The only time I have had a primer detonation is with brass that had a crimped primer pocket when I missed removing the crimp. It has happened 4 or 5 times on my Dillon 450 or 550. Also it happened one time on a Dillon 650 with 45 ACP brass that had a crimped primer pocket. In all events it was a single primer, there was no chain reaction.
CDS4306, your reloading methods are very safe but will be very difficult to increase your production rate because of the number of times you handle an individual piece of brass. Priming "off press", cleaning each primer pocket, individual inspection at each stage are time consuming that reduces your production rate. Your overriding concern is absolute safety, not a high production rate.
The unspoken fact in most of these threads is, "We trust our progressive machines to load acceptable ammo at 400 to 800 rounds per hour without excessive hands-on visual checking." To stay in your 'safety and comfort zone', you want to perform those checks. Your reloading process is very time intensive.
I've been reloading since 1974, used Dillon progressive presses since 1981, and simply trust my presses to do the functions accurately and safely because of their design. I haven't cleaned a primer pocket since 1978 since I proved to myself that it didn't reduce my group sizes. I'm not an extreme precision benchrest shooter or a perfectionist. I don't use maximum load powder charges so there is no need to weigh every powder charge. My process works for me, but I know you could never be comfortable using my method. I can't imagine using your process for just 5 test rounds.
To increase your production rate, you have to change your process, not go to a progressive reloading press. Your process eliminates any increased efficiency inherent in the design of a progressive press. Any changes to your process will take you out of your safety comfort zone. Just save your money and continue your reloading process with the press you now use.
I'm not attacking you or criticizing your reloading methods. To increase your production rate, you need to change your process, not buy a "faster" progressive reloading press.
Talk about an over reaction thread.....
As has been stated, you'd litterly have to intentionally quick smash a primer to get it to go off. I don't freak out about primers as some have.
I once said what happens with primers burning off in a can, and got the impression from some, that major explosions happen. They don't. They pop a few feet.
No way, would I hand load primers off press, when using a Dillon 650. I think that anyone who really uses these machines will soon find, the smoothness & technique to avoid flipped primers, no primers, and sideways primers. While a beginner might end up with 20 screwed up primers per hundred, that will quickly go to a zero count, or one or two at best.
As to this, seven years ago, I hit a deer at 65 mph on a motorcycle, as it leaped off a hill and over the left side of the highway, to land directly in front of me. I hit it's direct mass on a 800 pound bike, but it didn't blast through it. Instead the front wheel was pushed into the engine. I was thrown over the windshield, hit the asphalt on the left side of my head, and tumbled over & over for 150 feet. Time did seem to slow, as I was conscious, with no feeling of pain. My mind, said, when will I decelerate?
I did happen to wear a full face helmet that day, considering I often didn't on cross country rides. The helmet saved my head, the face guard flipped down to save my face, and somehow I didn't break my neck. The helmet did take out my collar bone, shoulder blade, and all left ribs were broke, as well as a non-functioning left lung.
But, I'm still here to prime on the 650! Just thought I'd throw this in for anyone wondering about helmets. P.S. Protective clothing helps too. I wasn't wearing any. Severe road rash, that took doctors hours to clean up.
As has been stated, you'd litterly have to intentionally quick smash a primer to get it to go off. I don't freak out about primers as some have.
I once said what happens with primers burning off in a can, and got the impression from some, that major explosions happen. They don't. They pop a few feet.
No way, would I hand load primers off press, when using a Dillon 650. I think that anyone who really uses these machines will soon find, the smoothness & technique to avoid flipped primers, no primers, and sideways primers. While a beginner might end up with 20 screwed up primers per hundred, that will quickly go to a zero count, or one or two at best.
As to this, seven years ago, I hit a deer at 65 mph on a motorcycle, as it leaped off a hill and over the left side of the highway, to land directly in front of me. I hit it's direct mass on a 800 pound bike, but it didn't blast through it. Instead the front wheel was pushed into the engine. I was thrown over the windshield, hit the asphalt on the left side of my head, and tumbled over & over for 150 feet. Time did seem to slow, as I was conscious, with no feeling of pain. My mind, said, when will I decelerate?
I did happen to wear a full face helmet that day, considering I often didn't on cross country rides. The helmet saved my head, the face guard flipped down to save my face, and somehow I didn't break my neck. The helmet did take out my collar bone, shoulder blade, and all left ribs were broke, as well as a non-functioning left lung.
But, I'm still here to prime on the 650!
Just thought I'd throw this in for anyone wondering about helmets. P.S. Protective clothing helps too. I wasn't wearing any. Severe road rash, that took doctors hours to clean up.
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fredj338
Member
Good thing you didn't have your seat belt on!
I think we found our new Marathonrunner.
"To be honest, if you're dissatisfied with your production, it's because you're using your turret press as a single-stage, my friend."
I agree with Wise_A.
I use a Hornady LNL and i'm very pleased with it. With every pull of the handle I put a cleaned case in and drop a bullet on and a complete round drops out. The primer slider can get dirty and start to hang up but other than that I haven't had any issues with the 10,000 plus rounds that I've done on it. The biggest annoyance is how fast you go through the 100 primers in the tube.
I agree with Wise_A.
I use a Hornady LNL and i'm very pleased with it. With every pull of the handle I put a cleaned case in and drop a bullet on and a complete round drops out. The primer slider can get dirty and start to hang up but other than that I haven't had any issues with the 10,000 plus rounds that I've done on it. The biggest annoyance is how fast you go through the 100 primers in the tube.
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Speed isn't the issue for me....
....but taking some of the work out of it is. I'm considering going to a progressive because it's one pump instead of three for each bullet. I've also been streamlining some to speed up without losing quality. Got a digital scale that I like, and a RCBS Uniflow powder measure. It's easy and accurate enough that I don't have to use my scale nearly as much to check weights.
I've absorbed a lot of work over the years just keeping my operation cheap, but now easier is in the cards.
I may also try repriming on the press whereas now I use a hand loader.
....but taking some of the work out of it is. I'm considering going to a progressive because it's one pump instead of three for each bullet. I've also been streamlining some to speed up without losing quality. Got a digital scale that I like, and a RCBS Uniflow powder measure. It's easy and accurate enough that I don't have to use my scale nearly as much to check weights.
I've absorbed a lot of work over the years just keeping my operation cheap, but now easier is in the cards.
I may also try repriming on the press whereas now I use a hand loader.
If I was in CDS' position and was absolutely committed to using the powder check die (not a bad thing--not my particular choice, but whatever), I would consider a combination seat and crimp die:
(1) Deprime/resize/prime
(2) Expand/Charge
(3) Powder check
(4) Seat+Crimp
And then really, really make the effort to convert over to on-press priming. I agree, it was hard at first. I even spent a long time feeding small primers by hand. But with a little tweaking and the right technique, I don't drop primers anymore. At all.
(1) Deprime/resize/prime
(2) Expand/Charge
(3) Powder check
(4) Seat+Crimp
And then really, really make the effort to convert over to on-press priming. I agree, it was hard at first. I even spent a long time feeding small primers by hand. But with a little tweaking and the right technique, I don't drop primers anymore. At all.
m657
Member
scanning the process of what SomeOneElse believes important safety considerations leaves little room to comment....
in my own reloading process similar concerns result in a related yet different choice of credible steps to take
the only way ~I~ have found to 'go faster' is to leave out behaviors that aren't really contributing to safety or production
therein lies the choices of 'different steps' to achieve the same goal
in my own reloading process similar concerns result in a related yet different choice of credible steps to take
the only way ~I~ have found to 'go faster' is to leave out behaviors that aren't really contributing to safety or production
therein lies the choices of 'different steps' to achieve the same goal
fredj338
Member
You can only go so fast thru technique & efficiency. At some point you have to up your equip game to increase production. Good equip allows this w/o compromise in ammo quality. The idea that you cant make quality ammo on a progressive is about 30yrs old. It is as safe as anything can be when dealing with things that go bang. Again, respect the process but dont fear it.
Ss press, about 75rds / hr
Turret, about 150rds / hr
Progressve, about 400rds
Progressive with case feeder, about 700rds
Progressive with case & bullet feeder, right on 1000rds
YMMV, but those are reasonable rates over one full hour from scratch with all components staged & ready to go. No amount of fussing gets your turret to 400rds, but you can always slow the progressive down.
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Nitrous SSC
Member
For the money the Hornady Lock and Load AP has been such a kick *** press for me. Overall it's almost half the cost of a Dillon including supplemental hardware. Progressive is where life begins!!! I did single stage 9mm and it was such a huge waste of life.
This is the first approach I considered. I just hated to give up the Lee Factory Crimp Die. Did I just open another can of worms?
Thomasino
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I have a RCBS Rockchucker Supreme single stage press & have been thinking about going to a Lee turret press , but I generally only load 50 to 100 rounds a week. I think I'm going to stick to my RCBS single stage because it works great for me. It helps that I am retired because I got all the time I need to load. I primarily load 38 Special/magnums, 44 sp/magnums, 45LC, 223s, and some others, all on my single stage press.
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You're right Fredj338, technique can only get you so far.
It’s the same with the history of computer systems. Years ago, when there were mainframes (about the power now of your laptop or phone), technique was everything in programming. You had to be as efficient as possible to process all the data because of the limited power of the hardware and hardware was very expensive. But there was only so much you could do. The price was that the programs were hard to debug and very difficult to change. Now with the technological leaps that occurred over the years, the focus has been on maintainability and modulization so that changes in systems can be addressed easily and quickly. Complexity needs to be reduced as much as possible (back to the KISS Principle (Keep It Simple Stupid)). Simple steps even if more. Technique is still important but not so much now as then. The speed of the hardware out paces any inefficiency in programming technique or process. Hardware today is relatively cheap. Could the programs today be faster? Yes, but they just need to be ‘good enough’ to get the job done as long as they are easy to maintain. You can always throw more hardware at it. Total Cost of Ownership is most important, not absolute efficiency in most cases. Hardware is cheap, people aren’t.
In my case Total Cost of Ownership is safety, simplicity and reasonable speed. I am not saying that other approaches are not safe and simple. I respect other ideas and want to hear them. That's why I posted this inquiry.
Kind of looking at the same idea here. I will never need to load 600 rounds an hour. I just want to increase my speed to be ‘good enough’ and still feel comfortable. I know that if I change some of my processes I can pick up speed with my current hardware. That’s a given. However, even with that, there is a wall and a challenge to my current comfort zone (comfort zones change over time based on experience and improvements in technology, and yes - I have primed on a press for years). By possibility upgrading to the right hardware, even if the process remains the same, I think total time can be reduced. A progressive may do that even if only get half the efficiency of what the hardware is capable of and still accomplish my goals. And if I need to load 600 rounds an hour, I can improve the process. Having options is always good.
There have been many differences of opinion expressed here. We have different needs and experiences. That is very good. We all do, however, share a common love for shooting sports and can learn from each other. I thank everyone who has responded. I am listening and paying attention to what is said and value your expertise and experience even if we don’t always agree. That’s how we grow.
Tell you the truth, I wouldn't want to be without my separate seating and crimping dies, either!
I dunno--it depends a lot on just how much time you have/want to devote to reloading per-week. At two hours a week, I think it'd be tight, even if you performed all steps on the turret. A progressive might be a better fit at that point.
fredj338
Member
Everyone says this but if you price the lnl equally equipped w/ a 650, about $75 less, not half. The lnl is just the press. The 650 comes with conv & most of the case feeder stuff. The lnl is a decent progressive though, especially if you dont want the case feeder.
Wee Hooker
Member
You are losing considerable speed by priming off press now. ANY progressive is going to prime on press. What's the difference? I'd suggest that before you drop big $ on a blue progressive w accessories you try priming on you LTC . Then make the leap if you don't get the speed you want.
Myself, I've been to progressive land and went back to my LCT's. I like the simplicity and control I get and the speed is good enough for my needs.
Myself, I've been to progressive land and went back to my LCT's. I like the simplicity and control I get and the speed is good enough for my needs.
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m657
Member
"YMMV, but those are reasonable rates over one full hour from scratch with all components staged & ready to go. No amount of fussing gets your turret to 400rds, but you can always slow the progressive down."
quoted for truth
at times I have used my 650 as a single stage loader of the Holy Black. It worked fine and amplify the notion that the fundamental steps of reloading remain the same regardless.
I've been looking for a good informative video showing just how the new-mfg factories manage to remain relatively safe and high quality given the huge output.
Thanks one & all for a great discussion.
quoted for truth
at times I have used my 650 as a single stage loader of the Holy Black. It worked fine and amplify the notion that the fundamental steps of reloading remain the same regardless.
I've been looking for a good informative video showing just how the new-mfg factories manage to remain relatively safe and high quality given the huge output.
Thanks one & all for a great discussion.
fredj338
Member
Have you ever run the 550? IMO, IT truly is the answer for guys that like to do less work, want full control & can still double the output of any turret if needed. It doesn't get any simpler for a progressive. Like an inverted turret, but with a high speed advantage. Yes it cost more, but who cares, still cheaper than 3 cases of 9mm.
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sasu
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I second that. The RL550B is a really nice progressive press. Changing calibers is a breeze, even when you change the primer size, too.
The caliber change and caliber quick change kits are relatively economical. The quick change kit has its own powder measure, the standard kit does not. You can also save a few dozen dollars by buying a standard caliber change kit plus a powder measure slide that you can then keep adjusted for that caliber - the slide is fast and easy to change on the powder measure.
I have also seen claims that because of the manually indexing plate the RL550B maintains better alignment and thus makes more accurate ammo than an auto index press. I have not thought about this myself so cannot say how true this claim is.
The price difference between RL550B and XL650 is not very big so there must be something special about the RL550B for it to survive so long.
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I agree. A 550 would be the press I prefer. Best of all worlds and high quality. I just wish it had 5 stations. I need that powder check die and still have separate seating and crimping.
The loads I use in my 357 and 327 are light. More of a dusting than a charge. I would take 5 charges to overload my 357 case. I just can't see well enough inside even with a mirror and lights. It would be very hard for me to see and judge a double charge at just a glance.
When I loaded 45 ACP this wasn't a problem. The cases were short and wide and it was very easy to see inside and identify a problem. Not true, at least for me, with the 357 and 327. The cases are tall and narrow. The RCBS Powder Check die solves that problem for me and I'm very satisfied with it. However, it does narrow my options. If I was still shooting 45 ACP, none of this would be a problem and we probably would not be having this discussion.
Dillon needs to make a 550-5 station press. I would be their first customer.
m657
Member
while "You can also save a few dozen dollars by buying a standard caliber change kit plus a powder measure slide that you can then keep adjusted for that caliber - the slide is fast and easy to change on the powder measure." does seem like a do-able solution.....there's always the confusion generated by changing little things....such as 'which powder' you use for that load....
The difference is he tried on-press Lee priming and couldn't get the hang of it. *shrugs* Probly needs a little adjusting, but if you can't get the hang of it, what good is it? A progressive with a different priming system would solve that problem, even if it's a costly option.
I have a whopping 500 or so out of my new LnL AP press (about 3 weeks now). After some primer feed issues (burrs) it runs like a charm. Haven't tried for a speed loading session and don't plan on it, but for the money and the time I'm saving loading .38's, I couldn't be happier. I did buy the Hornady powder cop die and it works well. It's a good visual check, just a lot going on at once when your'e used to single stage presses.
Ouch, been there, done that, but at 105mph. Stupid youth. Helmet, yes, cheap helmet but I had one. Not so much on the protective clothing. Lots of broken bones and LOTS OF ROAD RASH. That really sucks. !!!!!!! I feel your pain. Yeah really, I still feel it 11 years later. Did I say ouch?
Talk about an over reaction thread.....
..........
As to this, seven years ago, I hit a deer at 65 mph on a motorcycle, as it leaped off a hill and over the left side of the highway, to land directly in front of me. I hit it's direct mass on a 800 pound bike, but it didn't blast through it. Instead the front wheel was pushed into the engine. I was thrown over the windshield, hit the asphalt on the left side of my head, and tumbled over & over for 150 feet. Time did seem to slow, as I was conscious, with no feeling of pain. My mind, said, when will I decelerate?
I did happen to wear a full face helmet that day, considering I often didn't on cross country rides. The helmet saved my head, the face guard flipped down to save my face, and somehow I didn't break my neck. The helmet did take out my collar bone, shoulder blade, and all left ribs were broke, as well as a non-functioning left lung.
But, I'm still here to prime on the 650!
Ouch, been there, done that, but at 105mph. Stupid youth. Helmet, yes, cheap helmet but I had one. Not so much on the protective clothing. Lots of broken bones and LOTS OF ROAD RASH. That really sucks. !!!!!!! I feel your pain. Yeah really, I still feel it 11 years later. Did I say ouch?
fredj338
Member
My take on mechl powder check. Yes they work, but they can, like any piece of gear, break or fail. I like them for rifle, where i cant see the charge easily, like 223. I dont worry about it for pistol because i look inside & rarely use anything like TG or BE in larger cases. If i shot a lot of such powders, then a pc die would be important & you might want 5stns.
I only have two powder measures for my 550. One for pistol, one for rifle. If you change things a lot,then a unitek micrometer setup is helpful. The powder measure for each caliber is a waste of $$ to me, saves very little time, unless you always load the same loads which i dont.
I only have two powder measures for my 550. One for pistol, one for rifle. If you change things a lot,then a unitek micrometer setup is helpful. The powder measure for each caliber is a waste of $$ to me, saves very little time, unless you always load the same loads which i dont.
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domyalex
Member
I use the Hornady L-N-L; I can do about 300/hour (including filling primer tubes), visually checking every single round for powder presence (in 9mm I also use a lockout die).
Priming on the LnL is actually one of its strong points, as they don't overflow (it only picks a primer if the previous one was inserted in the case). Mount it on a solid table and you'll have very, very few issues with primers.
I shoot around 1000-2000 rounds / month and the LnL fits me fine. If I were to be a high volume shooter, I'd probably change over to the 650 or 1050, but I don't need it and my LnL has paid itself about 3 years ago.
Btw, I strongly recommend getting te Hornady led strip, it's super awesome for visually inspecting the cases: Amazon.com : Hornady Lock N Load Light Strip : Hunting And Shooting Equipment : Sports & Outdoors
Priming on the LnL is actually one of its strong points, as they don't overflow (it only picks a primer if the previous one was inserted in the case). Mount it on a solid table and you'll have very, very few issues with primers.
I shoot around 1000-2000 rounds / month and the LnL fits me fine. If I were to be a high volume shooter, I'd probably change over to the 650 or 1050, but I don't need it and my LnL has paid itself about 3 years ago.
Btw, I strongly recommend getting te Hornady led strip, it's super awesome for visually inspecting the cases: Amazon.com : Hornady Lock N Load Light Strip : Hunting And Shooting Equipment : Sports & Outdoors
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