Bullet recommendations

pgbarrow

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Hi all,

I've been using the AI to do some research on bullet types and wanted to get some input from real people. I carry a 4" model ten for hiking protection with my main concerns being dogs or possibly a mountain lion. I'd carry something different if I had a larger threat worry. The AI states that the best bullet to use for those two is a FMJ or a hard cast flat nose as penetration is more important than expansion.

Thoughts?
 
For Dogs or Mountain Lion? Just use an ordinary JHP, these aren't huge animals which require greater penetration than a human being and even a JHP is likely to pass right through either of them anyway, so might as well have an expanding bullet for greater tissue damage.

Frankly, I wouldn't be comfortable with a solid round which is going to punch straight through the animal possibly striking a tree or a boulder then potentially ricocheting right back at you.
 
For Dogs or Mountain Lion? Just use an ordinary JHP, these aren't huge animals which require greater penetration than a human being and even a JHP is likely to pass right through either of them anyway, so might as well have an expanding bullet for greater tissue damage.

Frankly, I wouldn't be comfortable with a solid round which is going to punch straight through the animal possibly striking a tree or a boulder then potentially ricocheting right back at you.
Thanks. It's really interesting the information the AI put out. Gave lots of stats and reasons. It recommended a FMJ flat nosed 125 grain round for penetration though muscle and bone (animals) and that while not ideal it would work better on people than lead or round nosed FMJ.
 
The adult mountain lions I've seen were in the 80 - 120 lb. weight range. They have thin skin or fur and a pretty light skeletal structure. Vital organs are within a few inches of penetration. A man who regularly guided lion hunts in southern Colorado told me he preferred a .22 magnum revolver.

Few dogs achieve a weight much over 100 lbs. or so. Also thin skinned with no heavy bone structure. Again, penetration is not likely to be much of an issue.

Years ago I had to deal with a Rottweiler, about 120 lbs, took 4 shots at close range using .45ACP 200-grain Speer JHP (the old "flying ashtrays"), first shot at frontal angle into the chest, second to the forehead, third a side shot into the lung region, and a final round at the base of the skull. That was the exception, not the general rule. I have put down several dogs and a dozen or more coyotes with much less effort. The critter may not be dead immediately but probably looking for somewhere else to be after the first solid hit.

I think your 4" Model 10 will do as well as any handgun. My preference in .38 Special is a lead semi-wadcutter, and (as bigggbbruce mentioned above) the fixed sight revolvers are usually regulated for 158-grain bullets for point of impact at point of aim.
 
AI is not all that reliable. Mostly it parrots stuff.
Find a round that shoots to the point of aim if you have non-adjustable sights.
Oddly there is a guy's post right under this note I'm making talking about trail guns and lots of people on there are talking about penetration. Hard cast flat nose come up.
 
The AI is useless, it parrots information from websites that come up first in google or bing searches. Thus, its gonna give you ****.

Yes, the SWC IS better then a JHP for the working, as MOST of the time people are not taking full size duty handguns such as a 4" barrelled Model 10.

They are using J frames. And we know hollowpoints in a J frame size barrel is a coin toss.
 
Thanks. It's really interesting the information the AI put out. Gave lots of stats and reasons. It recommended a FMJ flat nosed 125 grain round for penetration though muscle and bone (animals) and that while not ideal it would work better on people than lead or round nosed FMJ.

The problem with A.I. Generated Answers is that they're just a compilation of information sourced from top search results, which aren't always the best because even searches will omit any relevant parameters you input if they cannot find a precise match.

Conventional Wisdom dictates that a Hardcast Flatpoint Bullet is the best for Wilderness Defense, but a critical detail is that most folks seeking such a round are specifically concerned with defending themselves against Bear, in which you want all the penetration you can get due to just how tanky Bears can be.

However, Dogs and Mountain Lion aren't nearly so hardy and thus do not require any specific ammo to put down if need be, nor is maximum penetration always a virtue.
 
Hi all,

I've been using the AI to do some research on bullet types and wanted to get some input from real people. I carry a 4" model ten for hiking protection with my main concerns being dogs or possibly a mountain lion. I'd carry something different if I had a larger threat worry. The AI states that the best bullet to use for those two is a FMJ or a hard cast flat nose as penetration is more important than expansion.

Thoughts?
Making a decision using AI is like playing Russian Roulette with 4 chambers loaded.
Make your bullet decision on the animal's body structure. If my memory serves me correctly, a Mountain Lion has a relatively soft body, so does a dog/coyote. Bears on the other hand are more heavily muscled. Reading recently on self defense from a bear charging is to shoot for the nose/eye socket (the thinnest head bones are in this area). I will assume the hard cast or soft point heavy for caliber would be preferred.
 
Hard cast is not always best but it sells bullets.
Better lead bullet makers offer more than one hardness level.
Good point. Not much reason to use a hardened lead bullet at the usual velocity level of .38 Special (standard pressures, +P is more demanding of bullet hardness).

SWC factory ammunition is most commonly swaged bullets, nearly pure lead. Buffalo Bore and a few other specialty companies offer hard-cast options.
 
Never even had to take a shot at a mountain lion. I did have to take out two aggressive pitbull size dogs. One with a .38 DS with FBI load. One was with a 10mm auto and JHP. In both cases one shot thru the chest did the trick pretty much instantly. My understanding is pretty much like the opinions listed above, they are not that big or that tough. If you can hit them you can kill them with pretty much any decent round. They are mostly ambush hunters so if they are actually hunting you you want to make sure you are aware of them BEFORE they are on top of you.
 
Hard cast is good if the cartridge develops enough power to obturate it. If not, a softer lead is desirable.
Hardness of cast lead bullets is a relative thing. I've been casting since 1973 and have used everything from wheel weights to plumbers lead, window sash weights to linotype metal, Brinell Hardness Numbers from about 6 to 22. In my experience, there is a "sweet spot" for most planned uses.

Standard velocity handgun bullets can usually be made satisfactorily from any available lead or alloy. Magnum velocities usually require greater strength and hardness due to pressures and the heat of the propellant charge.

As an example, I have taken Colorado mule deer, typically 150 to 250 lbs, using .357 magnum with 158-SWC and 150-SWC-HP cast with alloys from about 12 BHN to 22 BHN (pure linotype). In most incidents the bullets have fully penetrated side-to-side, but those I have recovered displayed differences in actual performance, particularly after penetrating bone. Good expansion and weight retention were seen with BHN in the 12 to 14 range. BHN in the 16 to 22 range, particularly the hollow-point bullets, frequently displayed fragmenting and significant loss of bullet weight, rather than much expansion. All of those loads were within the same velocity range., and once again we are talking about thin-skinned and light-to-medium animals, not the larger and tougher stuff like the great bears.

Please note that either result can be very effective on animals. I cannot say definitively that one is any better than the other. Personally, I suspect that bullet expansion may be overly-hyped to a point of exaggerated expectations over many years of repetition by "experts" and advertising gurus.

Some will cry "heresy", I prefer to think it is only my opinion based on a fair amount of experience.
 
Fmj would actually be my last choice. Pick a quality +P self defense load from any of the top makers, and you will be absolutely fine.For what your needs are.
 
I have never cast bullets so my understanding is shallow.
Antimony is one way to harden lead but it gets brittle. Tin hardens lead to a lesser degree.
Water quenching and heat treating can harden lead but I've heard the hardness can dissipate. Do your own research on this, I'm in over my head here.

Shotgun slugs for large, dangerous animals should be hardened. Deer and smaller can be taken with common slugs.
 
For hunting, Elmer Keith developed his version of the LSWC that has a huge following among hunters. Called the 'Keith Bullet' it is an SWC with a large meplat. Since what you are likely to run into isn't big or thick skinned, any SWC will do. My next choice would be a good brand of JHP, again because you are talking about thin skinned animals. FMJ was specified to MINIMIZE damage in wartime. Not that it won't kill something dead but they aren't as effective as other bullets are more likely to quickly stop an attack so they aren't my top choice. And make sure the load is stout enough to penetrate regardless of projectile.

Like any defensive situation, though, you'd be advised to keep pulling the trigger until the threat was stopped. Animals are tougher, more single minded and if in attack mode are hard to deter.
 
I would go with a 157 +p in a soft SWC for a 38. I would pass on a 38 and carry my 10mm or the 44Mag. Both have target ammo that could easily dispatch either lion or dog.
 
Hi all,

I've been using the AI to do some research on bullet types and wanted to get some input from real people. I carry a 4" model ten for hiking protection with my main concerns being dogs or possibly a mountain lion. I'd carry something different if I had a larger threat worry. The AI states that the best bullet to use for those two is a FMJ or a hard cast flat nose as penetration is more important than expansion.

Thoughts?
I like Buffalo Bore 158 SWCHP ( non + P). Another good one is Federal Punch and Speer Gold Dot 135 JHP + P.
 
AI is not all that reliable. Mostly it parrots stuff.
Find a round that shoots to the point of aim if you have non-adjustable sights.

AI is reliable. It collects data from all over the internet - just like you do.

I use ChatGPT all the time. It's a great place to get started on learning ANYTHING. It has its faults - just like every human source of info. Another thing about AI that I like is that it doesn't get all holier-than-thou, I-know-better-than-you like so many posters do. It doesn't get snarky either.

Most of what everyone knows is parroting stuff and not based on personal experience.
 
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I usually have 158gr +P XTP's or LSWC in my model 64 when I go to the back of the property.
 
I like Buffalo Bore 158 SWCHP ( non + P). Another good one is Federal Punch and Speer Gold Dot 135 JHP + P.

AI is reliable. It collects data from all over the internet - just like you do.

I use ChatGPT all the time. It's a great place to get started on learning ANYTHING. It has its faults - just like every human source of info. Another thing about AI that I like is that it doesn't get all holier-than-thou, I-know-better-than-you like so many posters do. It doesn't get snarky either.

Most of what everyone knows is parroting stuff and not based on personal experience.
I use AI as just a source, but not as fact. It’s a good place to start
 
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