C prefix K frame question

[dobypilgrim]

Today I bought a K Frame with a C prefix serial number. Five inch barrel, lanyard ring, square butt, .38 S&W caliber. I can pick it up probably on Tuesday. On the backstrap is stamped "US Property" with the quotation marks. It was being sold as just a regular M&P, but I figure there is a chance that it is a Lend Lease revolver. Condition is probably 75-80%, but the diamond checkered grips are off by a couple of thousand. No import marks. Sorry but I made a newbie mistake and forgot to write down the serial number since I was trying to act quite nonchalant. Too nonchalant for my own good, I'll wager. I have bought way too many guns in the past month, lol.

Is this backstrap stamp indicative of a Lend Lease gun, like my Victories or is it just a US purchase for some Forest ranger camp, etc?

Edited to add OOPS! Just realized it is a Post 1948 revolver. SO...not WWII and not Lend Lease. Probably just a Forest Ranger revolver after all. I just got fooled by that 5 inch barrel and the chambering. Any thoughts on the "US Property" mark would still be appreciated. I didn't realized the Feds were buying .38 S&Ws after the war.

Thanks very much,
Doby Pilgrim

 

[Oyeboteb]

Hi Doby,


Since it is late at night and no one else is replying, I will give it a go.

If memory serves, ( for K-Frame Revolvers ) the C-Prefix began in late 1948. ( WWII era were originally no prefix, then V prefix, then VS. Then, at War's end, soon as the War was over, prefix became "S"...then, in a few more years, prefix became "C" ).

Which then would suggest your Revolver, for being US Property Stamped, is some Post WWII Gov't use, and, could not be a 'Lend Lease' or WWII era Arm.

Still totally cool though! And interesting.

Are there any other Stampings on it which could maybe give a clue as to what agency it was issued to?

The C Prefix Revolvers were still very high quality, and had the then new-ish 'Short Action' Mechanism and probably a new Hammer shape which was different than the WWII ones.

Depending on when in the "C-Range" it was made, it may still have the Half Round Front Sight, too.

Post some images soon as you can.

 

[DWalt]

Lend-Lease was long over by that time, but there are many possible reasons for the marking's presence. Most likely is purchase by some government agency that wanted it marked. A factory letter might answer the question if it's worth $50 to you to find out.

 

[Art Doc]

The description sounds like a Victory Model from WW II used by Great Britain. The C prefix serial seems completely at odds with the gun's features. I am at a loss. Maybe one of the experts can explain it.

 

[JayCeeNC]

Probably a post-WWII U.S. military contract gun. Where and to what military branch it was shipped could increase the value.
If it was mine I'd letter it.
It will cost you $50 to get a factory history letter from Smith & Wesson. The letter will tell you when it was shipped from the factory, to where it was shipped, and the configuration of the gun--i.e., lanyard ring, barrel length, grips.

 

[dobypilgrim]

Thanks very much, gentlemen. It has the half round front sight. I will post pictures when I pick it up.

At $250 I think I will letter it, along with 2 Victorys I recently picked up as well. The US Property mark is not only in quotations, it stamped in an almost italicized style. I recall seeing the "font" for lack of a better word on some Winchesters I used to own.

As I said, I guess it was that Commonwealth type WWII configuration that confused me.

 

[DCWilson]

Just to confirm: this gun chambers .38 S&W, right? Not .38 Special?

If there is no model mark on the frame when you swing the yoke open, it could be a legitimate (and I think rarely encountered) Pre-Model 11. S&W provided postwar revolvers to Commonwealth countries that chambered the .38 S&W round.

I recently made arrangements to acquire a Model 11-4 that was intended for South African distribution but which was apparently a contract overrun because it is not marked SAP as the shipped guns were. I have seen references to specimens with lower dash numbers, but I have never seen a photo of one, let alone a specimen itself.

If the serial number proves to be above about C450000, it is probably a model-marked gun. If below, it could well be a Pre-11. Either way, I'd love to learn the approximate serial number range when you establish it. You may have an uncommon collector's item.

 

[dobypilgrim]

Definitely .38 S&W and not .38 Special. It was just sitting there on the bottom shelf for several days because the sellers have it marked as an M&P in .38 S&W with no notation of the US PROPERTY mark on the backstrap. That ammo is tough to find or expensive, so nobody else had looked at it. I picked it up thinking it was just a nice old S&W and to check the serial number in the grips for a match. When they were off by a couple of thousand I started to put it back. Then I noticed the property mark and bought it instantly.

The guys there like Glocks and AR15s, and basically pay no attention to the old wheelguns. In the past week I have bought several Smiths from them including two Victorys. One is the unissued one I mentioned earlier.

I will get a couple of photos and the serial number up on Tuesday evening.

Thanks again.
Doby

 

[dobypilgrim]

Oh, and there is definitely no model mark inside the yoke.

 

[Oyeboteb]

That is really odd then!

A "U.S Property" late 1940s 'M&P' with Lanyard Loop, chambered for .38 S & W.


How is one to make sense of this?

I Had assumed it was .38 Special.


What U.S. Department or Bureau or Service, would have been using .38 S&W?

 

[dobypilgrim]

My photos are apparently too big to upload on this site. I will have to get them resized and try to upload them. I checked and it is still chambered in .38 S&W. Serial number C 269042. Grips are replaced, but early ones with the diamond. Lanyard ring is still present.

Thank you to all here for your thoughts on it. I can email photos to anyone who would like to have a look.
Doby

 

[DWalt]

That SN would date it somewhere in the 1952-54 (Korean War) period. Obviously the property marking is not of the WWII lend-lease style. My guess is that it might have been made for some foreign government under a U. S. assistance contract, for some purpose similar to Lend-Lease. Lots of really strange things happened involving guns back in the Cold War era (not that they don't still happen today). A factory letter might help answer the questions.

 

[Waidmann]

The ones I have seen advertised were shipped to the USMC at Barstow during the Korean conflict. They were .38 Specials and U.S. Property was marked on the backstrap (not on top). I can speculate on the caliber only in this context, the Postal Service and the railroad folks seemed to hold on to the .38 S&W a bit longer than most. Since the USPS had M&Ps made up in .22 LR I'd look to them.

 

[dobypilgrim]

"US PROPERTY" is on the backstrap. I was successful in getting some photos up at gunboards.com on the Modern Handguns Forum if you would like to see them. I am typing this from a Tablet and can't figure out how to resize the pictures small enough to fit here.

I am somewhat tech challenged apparently.

 

[dant]

I think you will find some gun companies did in fact make available the 38 S&W as well as the .380 Rimmed for countries mainly in the UK, if used in and through the government, could have been marked "U.S. Property" I know Ruger did it in the late 70's or or early 80's for their Security Six ,Speed Six models.....lanyards were for "police" military type applications.........let alone as noted above for other US agencies, guard or plant security use, we had guns from GE and TRW that were 'Navy ' marked, as they were contractors for the government. The "C" in the serial number I'd have to say puts it well past the "lend lease of WW II......(did the government continue to supply "others"??? hhmmm...the Saudis, or even Daniel Ortega come to mind...ha ha)) Pay for the letter and find out for certain, no need for "internet lore"

 

[dobypilgrim]

I will send off for the letter next week. Meantime, here are some photos of it. I think I may have found the correct grips for it now.

 

[RWJ]

Replacement barrel?

Just an observation, the extractor rod tip doesn't match the barrel cut out for the extractor rod tip. Does the the barrel flat and/or rear cylinder face have the same serial number as the frame? It could be a repair or conversion, or something of that nature, using older parts.

Just a thought.

 

[DWalt]

The ejector rod indeed does not match the barrel. I also have to conclude the barrel has likely been replaced. British .38 S&W (.38/200)-marked barrels of 5" and 6" length are not uncommon, and it would not be difficult to do. Has it definitely been established that a .38 S&W cartridge can physically be chambered? How about a .38 S&W Special cartridge? I read back through the previous postings and I can't say that those questions have been answered.

 

[dobypilgrim]

Thanks very much for pointing out the barrel and ejector rod. There is no serial number on the barrel at all, and it doesn't look like there ever was one. So replaced barrel. I am sorry that I am such a novice. Should have pointed that out. I have a box of .38 S&W ammo someplace, and I will see if it fits. The cylinder has the same serial number as the frame, by the way.

Will an S&W letter tell if it was rebarreled there? Ah well, at least it wasn't much money and it has that US Property mark.

EDITED to add...l found my .38 S&W ammo right away. It fits .38 Special perfectly but the .38 S&W won't chamber. I would assume a military or other entity would have been supplied with spare parts. Did armorers have barrels? Suspect a letter will show a 4 inch .38 Special.