C&R Holders- READ This!!!

[handejector]

Hi guys,
As a dealer, I can MAIL a handgun to a "bona fide dealer" in firearms according to the USPS Form 1508. I have to file a 1508 at the post office EVERY DAY I mail firearms.
The way it is worded, I cannot mail a handgun to a C&R.
That leaves me with FedEx and UPS. They both require that I ship a handgun via PRIORITY OVERNIGHT, or they WILL NOT PAY an insurance claim. Horribly expensive, as in $50-90!!

So, why don't you guys with C&R's petition the Postmaster to change the wording of the Postal Regs, and allow mail shipments to a C&R?
Perhaps letters would work just as well.
I would recommend stressing the fact that you went through the SAME FBI background check as a regular FFL dealer, and are just as ACCOUNTABLE to the BATFE.
He probably has the authority to do this with his signature!
It would save us BOTH some money.

 

[handejector]

Hi guys,
As a dealer, I can MAIL a handgun to a "bona fide dealer" in firearms according to the USPS Form 1508. I have to file a 1508 at the post office EVERY DAY I mail firearms.
The way it is worded, I cannot mail a handgun to a C&R.
That leaves me with FedEx and UPS. They both require that I ship a handgun via PRIORITY OVERNIGHT, or they WILL NOT PAY an insurance claim. Horribly expensive, as in $50-90!!

So, why don't you guys with C&R's petition the Postmaster to change the wording of the Postal Regs, and allow mail shipments to a C&R?
Perhaps letters would work just as well.
I would recommend stressing the fact that you went through the SAME FBI background check as a regular FFL dealer, and are just as ACCOUNTABLE to the BATFE.
He probably has the authority to do this with his signature!
It would save us BOTH some money.

 

[ladder13]

I have a C&R,and this license is not for dealer use. So the change would maybe have to happen at the BATFE level, perhaps?
Unless the USPS either considers a C&R equal to a dealer, or adds C&R to the description.
Does this take a new Federal law or can the Postmaster do this on his own? Does anyone know?
Perhaps the phrase "bona-fide Federal licensee" would suffice?

 

[handejector]

I have a C&R,and this license is not for dealer use. So the change would maybe have to happen at the BATFE level, perhaps?

No, NOT the way to go- ATF does not seem to really care HOW we ship, only WHO we ship to. The ATF regs don't specifically break this down between a dealer FFL and a C&R. Trust me on this- all we have to do is get the USPS to recognize a C&R as being as valid as an FFL for receiving.
I do not think the USPS understands that there are TYPES of licenses like the C&R. I don't think they meant to exclude them.

 

[Guest]

What "needs" to be done in my opinion is that the NRA or some other group of Gun Owners need to file a Class Action Law Suit against the USPS that would require them to allow individuals to use the same services that an FFL Dealer is allowed to use.

 

[cubrock]

Lee,

This postal reg was in place before the GCA of 1968. At some point, it had to have been amended to include dealers, since there were no federally licensed dealers prior to GCA. So, I am betting you are correct that the C&R issue was more of an oversight than anything else.

When I had a C&R, I hated having to pay extra shipping just because I didn't have an 01 FFL. If this reg were changed, I just might get a C&R again to cover my Ruger and S&W collecting, since I am primarily interested in guns that are or will soon be C&R anymore.

 

[handejector]

What "needs" to be done in my opinion is that the NRA.....

GREAT idea involving the NRA- why don't some of you contact them about it? Perhaps merely them lobbying/talking with the Postmaster would do it. It would be MUCH revenue for the USPS.

Lee,

This postal reg was in place before the GCA of 1968. At some point, it had to have been amended to include dealers, since there were no federally licensed dealers prior to GCA.

cubrock- did you mean there were no federally licensed COLLECTORS prior to 68?

 

[cubrock]

cubrock- did you mean there were no federally licensed COLLECTORS prior to 68?

My understanding is that federally licensed firearms dealers came about specifically because of the GCA of 68. Prior to that time, anyone could order just about anything they wanted and have it shipped to them provided their state law didn't prohibit it. Certainly, the C&R license came about in the GCA. Perhaps I am mistaken about dealers? I've been wrong before.

 

[DHENRY]

Lee,
The rub is the term, 'business'.
And C&R's (like me) aren't, as you know.
Jim Supica has done a lengthy treatise on the subject, and come to the conclusion that Federal regs are solidly in line declaring that USPS is a 'no-go'.
"...I'm from the government and I'm here to help..."
Don

 

[handejector]

Don,
I have studied the ATF regs at length myself, and I am convinced they don't care- the C&R is going to get the gun, it just comes down to how it is shipped.

So, we are back to the USPS. Now, they allow me to mail guns, so we know that doesn't bother them. I think it is just the fact that they do not understand what a C&R is, and, I REALLY believe, they ACCIDENTALLY worded the form in a manner which excludes them.
In other words, I don't think the post office realizes there is a type of FFL that is NOT a "bona fide dealer".
It would certainly be worth asking them to consider it!

 

[Guest]

The Specific "issue" here is the use of USPS for shipping handguns by non-licensees. We can ship long guns but it is the "Dreaded" handguns that are specifically prohibited from being shipped via USPS where the greatest rub is.

Prior to getting my 01 FFL, I was able to go into my local PO with the right paperwork in hand, I can ship any long gun under the right conditions - unloaded & without ammo - to any FFL Dealer in the USA. Maybe my local PO Master wasn't reading the regulations correctly but I have even been allowed to ship to C&R Licensees in the past as long as it was a long gun!

 

[zoom6zoom]

The form just needs to read "FFL" rather than "dealer" and all would be cool.

I have received pistols via priority mail from both 01 and 03 FFL's, several with the above pictured document attached.

 

[handejector]

Originally posted by zoom6zoom:
The form just needs to read "FFL" rather than "dealer" and all would be cool.

I have received pistols via priority mail from both 01 and 03 FFL's, several with the above pictured document attached.

I agree- they could just change the wording of their regs to include any FFL, and we are done.
The form 1508 is supposed to be kept by the post office where the gun is mailed, NOT sent along with it, per Postal Manual. It is kept on file for 1 year.

 

[Guest]

Lee;

Of course, you need to remember that each and every PO is it's own little Fiefdom and the Post Master does it his or her own way no matter what the "Book" says. Some of them are Gun Friendly and some of them aren't - I've dealt with both types and I go where I am wanted.

I just think everybody should be allowed to use the mails for anything that is "Legal" and not just because 'somebody' made a "Regulation" against it.

 

[ohiobuckeye]

After the private carriers went to the high priced overnight extortion, and before I started using the USPS for gun shipments, I went over this very carefully with the local postmaster, verified the results with his district boss, and two different BATF district offices(I never trust BATF answers from only one source

). This is strictly a USPS regulation and the BATF does care about who mails what, BUT should A BATF criminal investigation stumble across a USPS violation in the course of tracking a gun used in a crime, it could very well be prosecuted.
The 1508 form is very brief and you really need to look at the USPS regulation that spawned the 1508 form to see how they define qualified shippers and receivers. Go to USPS Domestic Mail Manual C024 and read the details. It's defined clearly in sections 1.3-1.5 as to who is authorized to ship and receive handguns via USPS. There are exceptions for government agencies, military, police, etc, but not C&R. Section 1.6 really nails it down by clearly stating the person who signs the 1508 is confirming that BOTH he(she) and the recipient are licensed as a firearm manufacturer or dealer. All other categories of shippers and receivers can't use the 1508 and require a signed affidavit. The 1508 is for dealers and manufacturers only. The C024 regulation would have to be revised to add C&R to the authorized list for mailing firearms AND use of the 1508, or C&R users could be stuck with the PIA affidavit requiremnt.
Long guns have no USPS restrictions beyond the BATF requirements and may be legally shipped to a C&R license as long as the long gun meets the BATF C&R requiremnts.

 

[ohiobuckeye]

Originally posted by KKG:
Of course, you need to remember that each and every PO is it's own little Fiefdom and the Post Master does it his or her own way no matter what the "Book" says. Some of them are Gun Friendly and some of them aren't - I've dealt with both types and I go where I am wanted.

You might have to climb around on the ladder a bit to find someone above the reluctant postmaster that will slap his hands for refusing to do his job, but it can be done. He's refusing you a legal service that makes money for the Post Office.
My son has worked for USPS for 23 years, and the system is a typical government bureaucracy, but there are good people who will help you straighten out the local anti gun postmaster...if you can find them.

 

[2152hq]

Excellent idea to get the wording of the PO reg changed to simply say that handguns may be shipped betw FFL holders and not just dealer/manufacturer. Having dealt and worked for the Gov't in the past, I imagine it's easier said than done but those that have better knowledge of the correct path to follow can perhaps help out here. It's not a BATFE issue as already stated,,it is just the out of date wording of a USPO Reg that is the problem. They do update those things don't they??
>
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FWIW...FFL's were first created in the Federal Firearms Act of 1938. Included manufacturers and dealer FFL. (Also the same Fed. law that made it illegal for a felon to ship, receive or possess a firearm or ammunition)

 

[handejector]

2152-
EXACTLY.
Well said.



Fellas,
I understand the regs- I have the relavant sections of the Domestic Manual.

I have already stated several times that BATFE does NOT care.....

I have had NO problems with the two Post Offices I have dealt with. They see me every day!

I KNOW a C&R cannot receive or send via the mail- that is what started this thread.

What I AM wondering is whether you guys with a C&R will pursue this. I REALLY think enough polite letters, clearly ARTICULATING the fact that a C&R is a federally investigated and licensed person would do it. Mention the revenue they are losing, also.

 

[ladder13]

Anybody got the U.S. Postmaster's address? I'm ready to start writing. Won't do me any good, living in the PRNY, but I'm willing to help my buddies.

 

[jjones33]

Here is the contact information:

Postmaster General:

Jack Potter
475 L'Enfant Plaza SW
Washington DC 20260-0010

Policy and Program Development
USPS HeadquartersVP & Consumer Advocate:

Consumer Advocate
475 L'Enfant Plaza SW
Washington DC 20260-2200

Consumer Affairs:

Policy and Program Development
USPS Headquarters
475 L'Enfant Plaza SW
Washington DC 20260-0004

A link to their email:

https://hdusps.esecurecare.net/cgi-bin/hdusps.cfg/php/e..._sid=kpUiC*4j&xssl=1


I will post this on the CSP board and the Sig board. Everyone needs to post on boards they are members of along with an explanation.

And then write each and every address above. I think something should be included that a copy of the C&R FFL will be provided to the post office when shipping so they will realize they are legitimate FFLs.

Lee, would you cross post this to the other forum topic heads such as the lounge and 1945 to present? Thanks.