C&R Inspection

[Throc Martin]

I'm not sure if this is the best forum to post this in but I figured the majority of C&R's on this entire forum browse this section of the forums. Moderators, please feel free to move it to another forum if deemed appropriate.

I got a call from the local ATF agent in my home town yesterday and he wanted to inspect my C&R Book. We set up an appointment for the following afternoon. Everything went fine but he mentioned something that really spiked my curiousity. The inspector told me that "any C&R bought (including private purchase transactions) are to be put on your C&R book." He didn't give a lot of clarification but did state the regulation that says this. After he left, I read the regulation (478.125(f)) and the first sentence says, "Each licensed collector shall enter into a record each receipt and disposition of firearms curios or relics."

I've always acted under the impression that the only purchase transactions required to be entered into a record are those bought from other C&R's. For instance, if you buy from an FFL and fill out a 4473, why would you have to put it on your book? In a private purchase transaction, what if the seller doesn't want to give you there driver's license number (according to the ATF agent, this is required)?

I'm wondering if anyone has any thoughts on this. This is the first time I've heard of it. On a side note, I purchased a gun that classifies as a C&R before I was licensed as a C&R and he didn't have a problem with that gun not being on my books. The agent just threw me for a loop and I was wondering if anyone can clarify what I thought was common knowledge vs. what I've been told and read.

 

[DHENRY]

Throc,
If you buy it, log it.
It's also a boon if and when the time comes to report a stolen gun.
Don

 

[Art Doc]

OK, so does that mean guns in your collection must be logged into your C&R log when they turn 50 and become C&R qualified even though you owned them for years?

A holder of an 001 FFL doesn't have to put personal guns into his log, why should C&R holders have to log guns not obtained via the license?

The ATF has no interest in guns not acquired via the C&R license.

Like most things from the government, the regulation is unclear and open to different interpretation. I only log guns purchased using the license. This is what makes sense to me and I do not see anything contrary stated clearly in the regulations.

 

[H Richard]

Any C&R gun bought from anywhere must be logged. If you have C&R guns bought before you had a license, you do not have to log them, but when you sell them, you must log them.

I'd be curious to know how many C&R licensee's have ever had an inspection? By the way , you can elect to have the inspection of your book at their office, and do not have to show any of your guns to the agent.

 

[haggis]

It is my understanding that any C&R gun that you have, even if you bought it before your 03 license, has to be entered into your book. It doesn't matter how you acquired it. If it becomes C&R while you own it, it goes into the book.

This is my understanding from a detailed reading of the regulations 20 years ago. It's one reason I didn't get a C&R license. It is possible that the regulations have changed. I think it would behoove you to find out for sure for yourself from the appropriate written regs. Don't accept an oral explanation - get it in writing.

Good luck,

Buck

 

[deadin]

If you buy a C&R eligible gun from a FFL you shouldn't be filling out a 4473 in the first place.
I log every C&R I have into my book. Then I don't have to try and explain (or prove) that a certain gun wasn't acquired under my license.
I also don't play the "I don't want to buy a gun that has my name associated with it" game. If you don't want your name on my records, look for someone else to buy from.
added: or sell to.

 

[DHENRY]

deadin,
IMHO you're giving wonderful advice.
Always err on the side of caution.
Don

 

[Throc Martin]

Thanks for the input. I don't have a problem putting the guns on my C&R. And according the the agent that inspected me today, they have spent the last five years doing pawnshop inspections so C&R's have been on the back burner for inspections. Last fall, they were instructed to start inspecting C&R's more often. That's just word of mouth from an ATF agent though. The way I read the regs, you should log any C&R purchased while you hold a license. That's not how I thought the rules worked for the 18 months I've had my license. Kind of caught me off guard.

The agent told me he took all of the C&R license in his region and selected two at random. I told him if he had picked the file next to mine (my fathers), he would have gotten to see a much larger and nicer collection than my own. I'm glad he clarified the rules for me though.

 

[mtb1bkr]

I had a visit from the ATF when I transferred my C&R from NC to CA. The guy was very professional. He did say he had to do the meeting at my house, but he didn't want to see my guns. We just sat at the table and talked. He said I was the first C&R holder he had ever had to do a visit on and the only reason was I was transferring from a free state. he didn't talk about the OPs question. The only thing he said I needed to fix was in my book, each firearm is on it's own page. He said the book is supposed to be laid out in columns. Other than that, he said everything looked good.

Bill

 

[Art Doc]

Everyone saying "It's my understanding that all guns must be logged..." exactly where do you get that info? I have read the regs several times and I don't see it clearly stated as such. My interpretation is just the opposite.

And log out guns that were never logged in?

I'm sorry, but this simply makes no sense to me.

This is also the first time I have ever heard of a C&R holder being inspected. Figures it would be in Kalifornia. The agent was INCORRECT when he said he HAD TO DO IT AT THE LICENSEE"S HOME so anything else he said is also suspect in the extreme.

I do not log C&R qualified guns unless I acquire them by actually using the license. If that's not good enough then they can have it back.

 

[mtb1bkr]

I'm with you Saxon. I just picked up a 1917 by filling out the 4473. It's not in my book, and I don't plan on putting it there. If they need proof of where I got it, they can go to the shop where I bought it. I may call them and see what they say on the phone and then ask for a specific location in the regs.

Bill

 

[VonFatman]

Bill,
You are wrong not to log in that 1917. If acquired while you are a C&R holder, it MUST be logged in. It also must be logged out if you sell it tomorrow. If you sell a gun you have owned since you were a kid and the gun now qualifies as a C&R, it MUST be logged out.

This is very plainly stated in the regulations.

When/if you sell/dispose of that old gun you had BEFORE you getting your C&R, just log it out with a short sentence in the log book noting the reason it was never logged in. It's no big hassle to do this and after all you agreed to follow the rules when you signed up and paid your $30.00.

I have a number of C&R guns that I was FORCED to purchase through a dealer (yellow sheet) who would NOT accept my C&R FFL. I could have balked and walked, but then I would not have been able to purchase the gun. You do not HAVE to do business with such dealers, but I do if it's in my interest to do so...sometimes I'd rather not cut off my nose to spite my face.

A class 01 FFL does not HAVE to take your C&R. He can (and many do) force the NICS check on EVERY sale. If I were an 01 FFL, and I were the slightest bit unsure of the gun's qualification as a true-blue C&R gun, I too would force the buyer to fill out the NICS paperwork. There is too much at stake to allow such a mistake when all is needed is his normal background check of which all dealers are very familiar with.

Just my .02

You will do as you like and I'm OK with that, but I think it's only fair to make it clear that the method you are choosing is wrong (as far a BATF is concerned).

Bob

 

[mtb1bkr]

Bob,
I'm not going to argue with you as you have probably had a license longer than I have. Can you point me to the area in the regulations where I can find all of that info? That way, we can all have it to read and everyone will be on the same knowledge plane.

Thanks,
Bill

 

[VonFatman]

No problem Bill...

Here's the reg:

§ 478.125 Record of receipt and disposition (f) Firearms receipt and disposition by licensed collectors. Each licensed collector shall enter into a record each receipt and disposition of firearms curios or relics.

This is pretty cut and dried. Not much "wiggle room" with Part. 478.125

It's the C&R activity while acting as a C&R that must be logged.

I hope this is clear. I took it directly from the regualtion.

Bob

 

[DHENRY]

An excellent analysis, Bob.
Since many of us have gone to the trouble of obtaining a C&R FFL, it makes good sense to use it, and follow the printed regulations.
If a person is adverse to keeping records, or suffers from 'black helicopter' syndrome, that individual would be well-advised to forget about ANY kind of licensure.
I chuckle when I read about folks worried over furnishing any evidence of firearms ownership...
Dealers and collectors have been subject to the regulations for decades.
IMHO, if a person wants to participate in the same arena as licensed dealers and licensed collectors, play by the same rules.
Don

 

[Art Doc]

I'm sorry, but I don't agree. I do not at all see the same thing you do in reading that regulation. No wiggle room? HA!!! There's TONS of it in that sentence. It seems just common sense that the regulation refers to guns acquired by using the license. Like I said before, FFLs are allowed to have guns off the book, why not C&R holders? The ATF is ONLY legally interested in tracking guns bought via the license. That's MY interpretation. You do what makes you feel comfortable, but I only log those guns I purchased using the C&R license. Again, like I said before, if the ATF doesn't like it they can take back the license.

 

[VonFatman]

SaxonPig,
Hey, that's what makes the world go 'round! If we all saw things the same way, heck, we'd all be board stiff! I respect your suggestion that the sentence is open to interpretation...

However, I would caution anyone wishing to "interpret" the BATF regulations to be sure to seek council before you do so...they (BATF) may/may not have a sense of humor regarding the books they are looking over...it's probably dependent upon the supervisor(s) as well as the agent on the scene.

Another thought that might go in favor of an individual using personal interpretation of the record keeping rules...your chances of an audit are slim to none...I would not worry too much about BATF calling anytime soon...I personally have chosen to keep my bound log accurate according to MY interpretation of the regulations. Each to their own.

BTW...one of the BEST reasons to get and keep a Class 03 C&R...not to buy guns...to take advantage of the discounts many wholesalers give C&R holders...this can be a HUGE benefit if you reload your own ammunition...just food for thought.

Bob

 

[Throc Martin]

I wouldn't say it's just California's ATF that does inspections. I live in Alabama and would have never thought my C&R would have been pulled for inspection yesterday. It was though and, according to the agent, they're going to start doing more. I wasn't prepared and only had about 7 hours to get prepared before he came. Fortunately, I only had one gun to worry about. The agent did inspect that gun also. I'm not sure if he had too or wanted too because we spent about 10 minutes talking about the gun and it's history any way. I'm going to call him back this afternoon and try and get a better explanation concerning why C&R guns purchased on a 4473 or in a legally private transaction should be recorded on my books rather than just the guns I buy with the license.

 

[walnutred]

I'm going to call him back this afternoon and try and get a better explanation concerning why C&R guns purchased on a 4473 or in a legally private transaction should be recorded on my books rather than just the guns I buy with the license.

Unless things have changed you can ask 3 different ATF agents that question and get 4 different answer. Depending on what day it is and the phase of the moon.

 

[deadin]

Unless things have changed you can ask 3 different ATF agents that question and get 4 different answer.

+1 on that!
The only real way to CYA is to get it on a BATFE letterhead from headquarters in D.C.