Can a 19-4 handle a steady diet of factory 357?

Bripro68

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The great interweb offers mixed feelings about this. Now that I joined here I can ask the experts. I hear too often that my model 19-4 is meant for 38s with the occasional 357. However I know it was built from the ground up for Bill to be a 357 on a K frame. What is the forums opinion? Thanks, Brian.
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Sure, why wouldn't it?

I would imagine that you would go broke before you wore out a K frame.

There have been reports of really hot 125 grainers cracking the forcing cones on the 19's and 66's, but by the time you ran enough rounds through to do that, you could save up and buy another gun.
 
Yes, I specifically heard the forcing cone would be at risk. I plan to keep using it how I have been but wanted to get some opinions from the forum. Thanks in advance, Brian
 
You're going to get 50 different opinions from 35 members ;).

Personal opinion - if you use large numbers (thousands) of full .357s you will accelerate wear on it, and the cracked forcing cone is a known but relatively infrequent consequence of this, usually with full 125 gr loads. The factory no longer has new parts for it.

If you have an L or N frame (or trade your nice 19-4 for one), that would be better suited for heavy .357 use.
 
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I find that mine is a lot more accurate with 158 gr. than with most of the modern 125 gr. 357 that's sold today. But needless to say I shoot mostly 38's out of it. Just don't want to take chances on a revolver that is pinned, recessed, and has had a history with cracked forcing cones. Mine is in great shape and I want it to stay that way for when it's passed down someday.
 
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Any light bullet .357 Magnum load (125gr and smaller) will cause premature wear in K frame .357 Magnums. The problems have been well-documented.

Not only have there been problems with cracked and prematurely eroded forcing cones, there have also been numerous examples of excessive flame cutting of the top strap, and early end shake development.

There are also tests out there which have compared powders, bullet lengths, bullet seating, etc., that bears out some of these problems.

There were a number of police departments in the 1970's, the Kentucky State Police among them, which replaced K frame magnums, with N frames, at S&W's expense.

The problem is real, although not as severe for the average shooter.
 
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I've had my M13-2 for 25 yrs or so, and I've always shot it with .357s. or .38s in factory or warm handloads, lead or jacketed, w/bullets seldom lighter than 150 or heavier than 170, or whatever I felt like shooting that particular day. It's still in fine shape, maybe a bit less finish than when I took it out of the box that first day, and still shoots the way I want a service-type revolver to shoot. As long as you stick with the heavier bullet wts, I don't guess I'd worry much about your M19. Shoot, clean, oil, repeat as desired.

Larry
 
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"Can a 19-4 handle a steady diet of factory 357?"
Probably, but why would anyone want to do that? It would also depend upon how many rounds per year a "Steady Diet" means. I am not at all in love with muzzle blast and recoil, therefore a "Steady Diet" for my shooting .357 revolvers is 95%+ .38 Special.
 
The problems with the K frames and shooting a great deal of full power ammo are not BS, but they do have to be considered in context.

I suspect you will find that current factory .357s are nowhere near as rank as the old school stuff such as from the 70s for example. It was also about that time that LE learned that practicing with .38s and then loading up with .357s was not a good idea (see, among other things, The "Newhall" incident, which was also had tactics issues, like poor stop tactics, not using long guns until too late, etc). About the same time, there was the start of more litigation about police shootings, some of which were not consistent with what we would do today. Even then, however, misses were bad stuff. That drove a LOT more training, and shooting a steady diet of hot ammo is hard on anything, including the shooter and the budget.

It is unlikely that as a private purchaser you would be able to spend enough on ammo to do any real damage to the revolver, and depending on your age and physical tolerance, even if you can, you are not likely to.
 
If shooting only .357 Magnums, I would stick to the 158 grain loads and you should be fine. Most of the problems discussed seem to come from the hot 125's.

I still have my first handgun, a 4" Model 19-3 that was given to me by my parents in 1985. It has seen everything from .38 Special target wadcutters to the hot 125 grain .357's to a couple thousand 158 grain .357 loads.

It is still in great shape but I have semi retired it now and do most of my heavy .357 blasting out of a 4" 686-1.
 
Bill Jordan himself did convince S&W to make the Combat Magnum, but in his day, it was the practice to use 38 Special for most shooting and .357 Magnum for qualification and carry. Remember also that the only .357 Magnum load in widespread use when the Combat Magnum was designed was the 158 grain load.

It is, however, not wise to use all Magnums in a revolver for which parts are no longer made. It is also not wise to use all Magnums as you will cause your wallet to empty out in short order.

I have heard of people having close to 20,000 rounds of 158 grain Magnum loads through a Model 19, but I do not see the point. The L frame was designed from the ground up for a continuous diet of Magnums. The Combat Magnum was not.

My vote is to enjoy your collector's item with light loads.
 
I vote that you should do whatever pleases you with YOUR gun. I also believe that shooting that 19 with heavy bullet magnums won't cause any noticeable harm.

Enjoy it on your terms,
 
Well here's my two cents worth, they don't make the old style 19's anymore and why take a chance with them. The majority of the .357 Mag loads I run through my 19's are mid range 158gr LSWC loads. For full house all the time shooting I turn to my 586's. After all there is a reason that S&W brought out the L frames.
 
I don't know for sure. I only know what I see for myself and hear from others.

What I know is that my 19-3 has never had a 38 in the cylinder. Carried for 19 years by a federal officer he qualified with Magnum ammo monthly. I have shot nothing but full boat 125 grain Magnums in it. So far...nada. But that's just one gun.

Here's what I hear. The vast majority of cracked 19s are 19-5s, first model with the crush fit barrel. Coincidence? Maybe. A police armorer in a shop using 19s said he saw them crack with 158 Magnums as well as 125s. He said one cracked with 38 target ammo. Hmm...makes me wonder if it ain't the ammo at all. Could be the guns? He also noted that every cracked 19 was filthy. Shot a lot and not cleaned. He had a theory that carbon deposits in forcing cone caused hot spots that could lead to cracking. Very interesting idea. I can't argue with him. I keep my 19 meticulously clean. If you do the same, I think (think) you'll be fine with any ammo you choose to shoot. But of course, I can't guarantee anything.
 
You might want to Google the name of William H (Bill) Jordan.

He is credit with convincing Smith & Wesson to adapt its medium K-frame series revolver to accommodate the .357 Magnum cartridge, resulting in the (S&W Model 19 and S&W Model 66) "Combat Magnum" He is also credited with developing the 'Jordan' or 'Border Patrol' style of holster.

You would need to put a few thousand rounds through your revolver to wear it out. Using less than full power loads will lessen the chance of forcing cone problems.

And when you have an evening to yourself you might want to read "No Second Place Winners" written in 1964. If you a LEO it will be interesting reading.
 
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My first Smith & Wesson was a 6 inch Model 19. I carried it on duty for a while. Back then I hung around with a S&W employee. He used to load for several area PD's. He also got alot of S&W ammo from Alton then Rock Creek. I can tell you without a doubt, my Md 19 has had over 10,000 rounds of both .38 SPL and .357 Magnum ammo thru it. It did go back to the factory once, to have a target trigger and target hammer put on. Like Saxon Pig said, keep it clean and it won't let you down.
 
Thanjs to all who responded. I'm glad I finally joined this forum. I'm learning a lot already.
 
The great interweb offers mixed feelings about this. Now that I joined here I can ask the experts. I hear too often that my model 19-4 is meant for 38s with the occasional 357. However I know it was built from the ground up for Bill to be a 357 on a K frame. What is the forums opinion? Thanks, Brian.
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Probably not, but why would you want to ?
 
Speaking form personal experience your shooting hand and forearm will give up the ghost before your M-19 does. So why beat yourself or your revolver up?

I shoot very warm 38 special ammo in my K frames 98% of the time and only enough .357 Magnum ammo to remind myself I really don't want to make a habit of doing so.

As others have suggested, if you feel the need to shoot smoking hot magnum ammo but an L frame revolver.
 
William "Bill" Jordan of the U.S. Border Patrol convinced Douglas B. Wesson. the then President of Smith & Wesson, to introduce the "Combat Magnum". The gun was as you see it today, 4" K-Frame with the extractor rod shroud added for weight, to make recoil more bearable. His expressed desire was for a gun capable of limited use with full power .357 Magnum ammunition but to be used primarily with .38 Special ammunition. Remember that .38-44 Hi-Speed was available at that time.

While many argue that the cracked barrel shanks are an uncommon occurrence there has been plenty anecdotal evidence presented on this forum over the past few years to cause me to believe it is not as uncommon as some believe. I have seen a few over the years, one belonging to a close friend! Replacement barrels in any length are virtually impossible to find! I know you didn't ask about the 110-125 gr. loads, but I will not use them in an Model 19 I own.

As mentioned, it is your gun to do with as you please. That said, even with nearly 60 years of shooting just about any caliber you can name, and, probably, many you can't, I find that loads of ca. 1000 FPS are just about all I care to shoot more than just a few at a time in any revolver. Why not use the gun in the fashion it was originally designed, it should last virtually forever that way. Buy an L-Frame or N-Frame to shoot full-snort loads in if you want to shoot exclusively full power .357s.

Can a Model 19 handle a steady diet of .357 Magnum, maybe. Will your model 19 tolerate exclusive use with .357 Magnum ammunition, possibly. How many rounds? Just one less than the one that causes a failure! Your choice!
 
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I get tired of answering this, but here we go again...:rolleyes:

Bill Jordan told me in person that he expected some 10-15% of ammo fired in a Combat Magnum would be .357's. Most then and now fire more .38 ammo in any .357 not mandated to be used all the time with full loads.

Some forces now require qualifying with full loads if they are carried on duty. I'd fire them often enough to be sure of qualifying, but not otherwise, unless I needed the power, perhaps in bear or cougar country. In Florida, you might want warmer loads on big pythons. Ditto where alligators or other crocodilians may be a menace.

Now, Jordan said what he did, and he knew what he expected from the design when it originated. But his friend Skeeter Skelton used his M-19's enough with reasonable low end .357 loads that he finally accepted that the M-19 was plenty durable with reasonable use and he largely retired his beloved M-27's for his M-19. But Skeeter used mainly a very hot .38-44 handload that is now considered to be a low end .357 load. I don't think he ever used many 125 grain .357 smoker rounds as were loaded until recent years.
Those appeared in the 1960's, originally under the Super Vel brand.

I used some early Remington and Federal and Super Vel ammo in my M-19's and quickly decided that they were too hot for those smaller guns. I relegated them to use in my Model 27 and 28. Then, I decided that I didn't really need them at all, and went back to 140-158 grain JHP in all .357 use.

From what I've heard, Dallas PD and the FBI both found Winchester's 145 grain .357 Silvertips to be so positive in their effects on felons that I didn't feel the need to abuse my
.357's with 125 grain blowtorch ammo.

In 1981, I was invited by S&W's PR man to attend a session at the sheriff's range where company reps would let us fire the forthcoming L-frame guns. Of course, both the various cops there and I, as a trade press member, were suitably brainwashed with promotional info.

These reps were candid about K-framed .357's suffering from heavy use with the very hot 125 grain and lighter .357 loads. BUT they also told me that a lot of the guns that gave trouble had been shot a lot with Plus P Plus .38 Special ammo. This stuff was loaded only to the specs of the departments that ordered it. It has never been released for commercial sale. The ONLY reason for this stuff is that some agencies were afraid of "community activists" objecting to cops using .357 ammo. So they loaded this very hot ammo and issued it for use in .357 guns. Thus, they could tell the media that they issued .38 ammo. I was told that this ammo was AT LEAST as abusive to K-frame guns as was the hot 125 grain .357 stuff. That it exists and some gets out to the public is one reason why I contest Saxon Pig's posts saying that Plus P, without qualifications, is okay for even early .38 Special guns. Some ninnies don't read ammo boxes carefully and others buy loose ammo and shoot it.

I do believe that dirty forcing cones, with powder residue, increase pressures from hot loads and may well contribute to those throats cracking.

Now, I have recently seen photos of Ruger GP-100 barrels with severely eroded throats from firing a lot of hot 125 grain bullets in .357 cases. If this heavy use affects a sturdy GP Ruger, what do you think it will do to a smaller K-frame S&W barrel with the thinner flat on the bottom?!

My answer is to avoid very hot, lightweight bullets and to use any magnum ammo in reasonable quantities. Occasional firing to remain familiar with the recoil and blast and to be sure it's hitting where it should is enough. Beyond that, use .357 loads in the field as you see the need.

Keep in mind that the good traditional K-frame guns are no longer made. Buy spares and use them in reasonable ways. But I don't worry about firing them in normal use with modest amounts of full .357 loads. I do use 140-158 grain bullets.

I haven't time now to go into why the lighter bullets are a problem. But they are, in full magnum loads. Both S&W and several ammo companies' engineers said so, and told me why.
 
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Excellent information, again, in Texas Star's post above. Most pointedly "use them in reasonable ways".

I have both 66's and 19's that I shoot at the range regularly and have done so since I was first a LE back in the early 70's. My normal routine is to take one of my favorites and put 2-3 boxes of .38 Spl +P rounds through it followed by 15-20 rounds of full .357 magnum through it. I very seldom shoot anything lighter than 158 grain, my favorite field carry round being the Buffalo Bore 158 grain hard cast. Following my shooting routine I then take the gun home and give it what my Grandfather used to call a "good Christian" cleaning.

As I said, I have done this for over 40 years and have never had any issue with either a Model 19 or a Model 66 and I have literally put thousands of rounds down range with them.

As someone said above, if you are a competitive shooter and it is your intention to put thousands and thousands of .357 rounds down range then, by all means, get yourself a L or N frame revolver to do so.

If, on the other hand, you are simply a recreational shooter occasionally going to the range to shoot a box or two. That Model 19 will be around a lot longer than either of us will.

Enjoy the thing. That's what it was made for.

Bob
 
All of my comments on +P are based on the mainstream, current production ammo. Specialty ammo must be considered separately.

+P+ has no standard so must be approached with caution. Each manufacturer will have its own +P+ standards. My only experience with factory +P+ 38 Special left me severely underwhelmed. A 110 JHP round that clocked a pathetic 890 FPS from a 4" revolver. Again, +P+ must be examined case by case. And I do read the label information, BTW, thoroughly.

I have loaded a 110 JHP to a clocked 1405 FPS from a 4" Model 10. I don't think this load is harmful to the gun but it shot 8" high at 25 yards making it unusable for self defense. The 125 at 1150 shoots much closer to POA with fixed sites.

Everybody just do what you want. I am really, really tired of this discussion.
 
Sure, why wouldn't it?

I would imagine that you would go broke before you wore out a K frame.

There have been reports of really hot 125 grainers cracking the forcing cones on the 19's and 66's, but by the time you ran enough rounds through to do that, you could save up and buy another gun.
Yup. But my 19's cone cracked with about 200 rounds of Winchester factory 125 grain loads. It was re-barreled by the the factory without charge, but this was in the late '70's. When I take it out of mothballs on occasion, it gets midrange 158 lead handloads in .357 cases and full-power (though not maximum-published) 158 jacketed. I work test loads up to maximum-published for the specific bullet but after establishing that they are safe and cause no problems, I back the charge off a few tenths. I have a modest supply of factory Federal 125's I jealously guard but they're restricted to my 686. I must confess I haven't bought factory .357 ammo in ages.
 
All of my comments on +P are based on the mainstream, current production ammo. Specialty ammo must be considered separately.

+P+ has no standard so must be approached with caution. Each manufacturer will have its own +P+ standards. My only experience with factory +P+ 38 Special left me severely underwhelmed. A 110 JHP round that clocked a pathetic 890 FPS from a 4" revolver. Again, +P+ must be examined case by case. And I do read the label information, BTW, thoroughly.

I have loaded a 110 JHP to a clocked 1405 FPS from a 4" Model 10. I don't think this load is harmful to the gun but it shot 8" high at 25 yards making it unusable for self defense. The 125 at 1150 shoots much closer to POA with fixed sites.

Everybody just do what you want. I am really, really tired of this discussion.
Saxon, with all respect to you, I don't even want to KNOW what load you are using to clock a 110 grainer out of a 4" Model 10!:eek: Patience, my friend. I believe that one our collective functions in this marvelous forum is to teach.
 
shil- I wouldn't own a gun I had to baby or failed to inspire confidence. If I can't shoot any ammo out of it, I don't see the point of having it. That's why I divested myself of all my pre-1925 S&Ws a few years back. Didn't trust the metallurgy. Then last year I went back on my own promise and bought a 32-20 made in 1910. No tempering on cylinder.

I decided not to baby it. I load the same ammo I would shoot in a later revolver of that caliber. So far no problems.
 
1405fps out of a .38spl.....WOW!

That's actually fairly simple to do, and in fact I have loaded heavier bullets in .38 Special cases to full .357 Magnum velocities. That doesn't make it safe or desirable to use in all guns, as chamber pressures are very high. Due to numerous reports of split barrel throats with high-velocity light bullet loads, I want nothing to do with them.

I will confirm that +P+ loads do not comply with any established industry SAAMI chamber pressure standards. You are strictly on your own if you use those.
 
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