As "bummer" mentioned in his post, the Marines were identified in Senich's book. The dust cover on that book has the same three Marines enlarged to fit edge to edge and it's very obvious that the rifle is a first issue M40 with the Redfield 3x9 scope and mount!
Can you identify this USMC Sniper Rifle and Scope? Khe San, 1968.....
- Thread starter canoeguy
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Homie is correct. The shooter is identified in Senich's book "The One Round War - USMC Scout-Snipers in Vietnam" as L.Cpl. Albert Miranda, 19, of El Paso, TX. Center is L.Cpl. David Burdwell, 20, of Wichita Falls, TX. On the right is Lt. Alec Bodenwiser of Portland, OR. The rifle is an early Remington M700/M40 with the Redfield 3x9 scope. Frankly, I thought at first glance that it was a M70, but most of M70's that I have seen (not all) had the longer Unertl target scope.
5-Shot
Member
s&w chad (post 17) gave a nice description of the Redfield scope. Here's what I remember from reading about the scope and rangefinder when it first came out. Redfield determined that the typical VC combatant measured 18 inches from the belt line to the collarbone and designed their range finder to use that figure. Simply place the rangefinder wires on the VC and then twist the magnification to make him fit. Then read the range at the bottom of the picture. (They also claimed the normal deer...chest to back...measured about 18 inches for civilian use.)
I was able to spend some time in the desert about 20 years ago with one of those scopes. We rigged up an 18 inch target and moved it around to various ranges out to about 350 yards and compared the Redfield estimates with lasered measurements. They were close enough.
Ed
I was able to spend some time in the desert about 20 years ago with one of those scopes. We rigged up an 18 inch target and moved it around to various ranges out to about 350 yards and compared the Redfield estimates with lasered measurements. They were close enough.
Ed
CAJUNLAWYER
Member
Thst definitely looks like a Model 70 bolt handle to me. Full disclosure, I have owned control feed Winchester model 70's as well as Model 700's. Ain't no way that is a Model 700 bolt handle
Scharfschuetzer
Member
Sniper Scope Reticles
While the original post was just to ID the Remington rifle and the Redfield scope, it has evolved into a general discussion of rifles and scopes so I thought that I'd add the following to my two posts above regarding the reticles used by the US Army from VN to the GWAT. I used the ART II reticle and the Mil Dot reticle during my time behind rifles.
I also use the Redfield 3X9 Acurange as a sporting scope due to my familiarity with it from the service. S&WChad in Post 17 does a good job of describing it, so I won't repeat his good work.
If you want detailed info on the Army sniper rifles and advanced marksmanship, you can find it in FM 23-10 (1974) and the later TC 23-14.
The Army reticle when I retired used a combination of the mil dot and the WW I/Draganuv PSO ranging reticle in a Nightforce scope. These scopes were mounted on the Mk 13 SWS rifle (Another Remington 700 based rifle). I don't have a photo of it, but imagine a mil dot reticle with a Draganuv PSO reticle at the bottom of the field of view.
The ART I and ART II work with a variable power scope (either the 3X9 Redfield or the 3X9 Leatherwood in the US Army) as they increase or decrease the size of a known size object in comparison to the reticle and then give the range as a function of the number on the scope power ring. On the M21 sniper rifle (M14NM) the elliptical cam on the power ring also raised or lowered the rear of the scope to set the range/trajectory to what the power ring read.
The Mil Dot works in scopes to measure the angle in mil radians to a target of a know size:. I.e. Target size / mils X 1000 = range. Or for example: 1 meter / 2 mils X 1000 = 500 meters.
The ART I, The ART II and the current Mil Dot reticles.
While the original post was just to ID the Remington rifle and the Redfield scope, it has evolved into a general discussion of rifles and scopes so I thought that I'd add the following to my two posts above regarding the reticles used by the US Army from VN to the GWAT. I used the ART II reticle and the Mil Dot reticle during my time behind rifles.
I also use the Redfield 3X9 Acurange as a sporting scope due to my familiarity with it from the service. S&WChad in Post 17 does a good job of describing it, so I won't repeat his good work.
If you want detailed info on the Army sniper rifles and advanced marksmanship, you can find it in FM 23-10 (1974) and the later TC 23-14.
The Army reticle when I retired used a combination of the mil dot and the WW I/Draganuv PSO ranging reticle in a Nightforce scope. These scopes were mounted on the Mk 13 SWS rifle (Another Remington 700 based rifle). I don't have a photo of it, but imagine a mil dot reticle with a Draganuv PSO reticle at the bottom of the field of view.
The ART I and ART II work with a variable power scope (either the 3X9 Redfield or the 3X9 Leatherwood in the US Army) as they increase or decrease the size of a known size object in comparison to the reticle and then give the range as a function of the number on the scope power ring. On the M21 sniper rifle (M14NM) the elliptical cam on the power ring also raised or lowered the rear of the scope to set the range/trajectory to what the power ring read.
The Mil Dot works in scopes to measure the angle in mil radians to a target of a know size:. I.e. Target size / mils X 1000 = range. Or for example: 1 meter / 2 mils X 1000 = 500 meters.
The ART I, The ART II and the current Mil Dot reticles.
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SuperMan
Member
I have all the books referenced above and quite a few more on sniping during the VN era and believe that is a Remington M40 system. If one looks at the picture of the rifle in question and the one Hathcock is aiming, which is known to be a long action Model 70 .30-06, the action on the gun in question, which would be a short action .308 if a 700, is much shorter in appearance. From my readings there were no Winchester .308s in the Marine sniper inventory, all were target grade Winchesters in .30-06...
Bob
Bob
I agree that the handle doesn't look like a commercial 700, but the Model 70 was not used to build M40's. The USMC M40's started out as a 40X/700, but a lot of modifications were performed by USMC armorers in Quantico, using component parts from a number of suppliers. They had a free- floated non-checkered stock, a heavier recoil lug, an upgraded trigger and a steel triggerguard... just to name a few. The actual spec's are not readily available and were probably classified. I don't know if the bolt handles were one of the modifications, but I'm pretty sure they were just brazed on and that's a simple enough change to make. Many of the custom builders today who use 700 actions change the bolt handles.
Note the bolt on this USMC photo of a sniper in Hue'. I guess all the photo attributes of the OP's photos could be wrong and the USMC description of the rifle in this photo could be wrong, but I wouldn't bet on it.
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I can't remember at the moment when Winchester began making a short-action (.308 length) Model 70 action, but it hasn't been all that long ago. Winchester chambered the .308 in the Model 70 Featherweight in the early '50s, but they used the same length action that was used for everything else for decades.
If someone already mentioned this, I apologize, but there is an excellent article in the April 2011 edition of the AMERICAN RIFLEMAN, "The Military Model 70" by Bruce Canfield, a military arms expert and certainly the best overall writer this magazine has had in a long time.
As for the non-Remington-looking bolt handle in the photo of the Remington 700 rifle at the beginning of this post, I wouldn't put too much faith in what something "looks like" during an era of almost endless military modifications and experimentation. Bolt handle configuration is a very simple alteration.
If someone already mentioned this, I apologize, but there is an excellent article in the April 2011 edition of the AMERICAN RIFLEMAN, "The Military Model 70" by Bruce Canfield, a military arms expert and certainly the best overall writer this magazine has had in a long time.
As for the non-Remington-looking bolt handle in the photo of the Remington 700 rifle at the beginning of this post, I wouldn't put too much faith in what something "looks like" during an era of almost endless military modifications and experimentation. Bolt handle configuration is a very simple alteration.
AJ
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While Unertl scopes have been discussed here generally, no one has gone beyond a cursory mention.
I've always been amazed that Unertls were used in severe, military combat situations. While these are excellent scopes even today (they've been out of production for twenty-five years), Unertls are quite fragile in comparison with more modern internally adjustable scopes.
There are several exposed surfaces on Unertl scopes subject to being contaminated by grit, dirt, dust, rainwater, etc. The entire tube, parallax adjustment and locking ring, and threaded lens caps are all blued steel and would likely rust very easily. Overtightening anything on a Unertl is risking breakage.
However, optics are excellent. Parallax adjustment works as well as anything we have today, but the actual adjustment is not an exercise in convenience. Some condemn the small field of view, but this is more of an academic "easy-chair expert" criticism than something real.
I haven't fiddled with this in a long time, but as I recall, scope adjustments are very repeatable and one will likely find the "feel" of Unertl "clicks" more positive than on any other scope. I've tried removing and re-attaching a Unertl (very quick and simple process that can be done without tools). Seems like the zero is retained or is very close after re-attaching, but I can't recall for sure; haven't done it in a while.
I suppose the military users of Unertls were well-versed regarding the previously mentioned shortcomings of these scopes and took great care in handling them.
I've always been amazed that Unertls were used in severe, military combat situations. While these are excellent scopes even today (they've been out of production for twenty-five years), Unertls are quite fragile in comparison with more modern internally adjustable scopes.
There are several exposed surfaces on Unertl scopes subject to being contaminated by grit, dirt, dust, rainwater, etc. The entire tube, parallax adjustment and locking ring, and threaded lens caps are all blued steel and would likely rust very easily. Overtightening anything on a Unertl is risking breakage.
However, optics are excellent. Parallax adjustment works as well as anything we have today, but the actual adjustment is not an exercise in convenience. Some condemn the small field of view, but this is more of an academic "easy-chair expert" criticism than something real.
I haven't fiddled with this in a long time, but as I recall, scope adjustments are very repeatable and one will likely find the "feel" of Unertl "clicks" more positive than on any other scope. I've tried removing and re-attaching a Unertl (very quick and simple process that can be done without tools). Seems like the zero is retained or is very close after re-attaching, but I can't recall for sure; haven't done it in a while.
I suppose the military users of Unertls were well-versed regarding the previously mentioned shortcomings of these scopes and took great care in handling them.
LittleCooner
Member
Scharfschuetzer
Member
Let me respond to a few points and questions that have been posted without being crass or obtuse.
Regarding the blown up photo above: That really is a short action Remington. Key indicators are: No external claw extractor and the Remington safety. The Winchester used in VN was a standard length, had an external claw extractor and the safety was mounted on the striker housing and not on the trigger assembly frame. I'll post a photo below.
To back stop my observation:
As noted above, The Winchester short action did not appear until the "push feed" style of actions. I believe that they did not appear until the G series of serial numbers, about 1968 if my memory serves me, but it could have been 1964 and the pre G serial numbers, although I've not seen one in that range. Again, these original short actions were push feeds without the rotating external claw extractor. I do not think that any of these post 63 push feed Winchesters were ever used by the USMC or the Army.
The Pre 64 Winchester (the type used by the USMC) had only one action length and bolt throw was controlled by an extension or lack of one on the extractor collar. It ran along the length of the left side raceway and controlled bolt through by limiting the return distance of the bolt throw. Magazine length was specific to either short (308, etc.), medium (30/06 or 270) and long (300 and 375 H&H Magnums). The magnums also had a modified bridge in order to shoehorn in the longer magnum length cartridges and magazines, but the receiver length remained the same as all other Pre 64 Model 70s. It is noticeably longer than the action in the photo.
Remington on the other hand, came out with a short action (after the Model 30 was discontinued) with the Model 722 in the late 40s. The short action 722 design evolved into the short action Model 700, 40X and eventually the military Model 40 rifles.
Just for fun: Regarding the old long Unertles: They are an absolute treat to use on the range or the prairie dog fields. As noted though, they are fragile and care must be taken at all times with them. Another issue with them in the tropics (or Camp Perry in the summer) is that they are not sealed against the weather.
There was a synthetic material carrying case issued with them for transport when they were not actually on a rifle. One can make a similar carrying case for them out of PVC pipe with threaded caps.
I currently use three Unertle scopes on my varmint and match rifles as well as the Redfield version, the Model 3200.
This is a transitional safety from a Winchester match rifle made in 1947. Later Model 70 safeties had an extension dropping vertically down to improve the thumb's purchase. Either way, it is noticeably different from the Remington 700/40X/M40 safety.
Regarding the blown up photo above: That really is a short action Remington. Key indicators are: No external claw extractor and the Remington safety. The Winchester used in VN was a standard length, had an external claw extractor and the safety was mounted on the striker housing and not on the trigger assembly frame. I'll post a photo below.
To back stop my observation:
As noted above, The Winchester short action did not appear until the "push feed" style of actions. I believe that they did not appear until the G series of serial numbers, about 1968 if my memory serves me, but it could have been 1964 and the pre G serial numbers, although I've not seen one in that range. Again, these original short actions were push feeds without the rotating external claw extractor. I do not think that any of these post 63 push feed Winchesters were ever used by the USMC or the Army.
The Pre 64 Winchester (the type used by the USMC) had only one action length and bolt throw was controlled by an extension or lack of one on the extractor collar. It ran along the length of the left side raceway and controlled bolt through by limiting the return distance of the bolt throw. Magazine length was specific to either short (308, etc.), medium (30/06 or 270) and long (300 and 375 H&H Magnums). The magnums also had a modified bridge in order to shoehorn in the longer magnum length cartridges and magazines, but the receiver length remained the same as all other Pre 64 Model 70s. It is noticeably longer than the action in the photo.
Remington on the other hand, came out with a short action (after the Model 30 was discontinued) with the Model 722 in the late 40s. The short action 722 design evolved into the short action Model 700, 40X and eventually the military Model 40 rifles.
Just for fun: Regarding the old long Unertles: They are an absolute treat to use on the range or the prairie dog fields. As noted though, they are fragile and care must be taken at all times with them. Another issue with them in the tropics (or Camp Perry in the summer) is that they are not sealed against the weather.
There was a synthetic material carrying case issued with them for transport when they were not actually on a rifle. One can make a similar carrying case for them out of PVC pipe with threaded caps.
I currently use three Unertle scopes on my varmint and match rifles as well as the Redfield version, the Model 3200.
This is a transitional safety from a Winchester match rifle made in 1947. Later Model 70 safeties had an extension dropping vertically down to improve the thumb's purchase. Either way, it is noticeably different from the Remington 700/40X/M40 safety.
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LittleCooner
Member
interesting article that showed up on the internet this morning, complete with several photos, the 2011 National Rifleman article on the Model 70.
American Rifleman | The Military Model 70: A Forgotten Sniper Rifle
American Rifleman | The Military Model 70: A Forgotten Sniper Rifle
I would have guessed Rem 700 from time frame but picture is so poor I can't say from it what it is. I always had a sharp eye for this kind of thing and never saw a old model 70 in RVn. Only a few from late 60s manufacture with 3x9scopes.
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I can tell you one thing for sure. Sniper Rifles and Starlight scopes were the two hardest things to liberate in RVN. I was a master and never scored either one. If you wanted a 175mm SP delivery about a week, M2 50cal a couple days. Snipers were very possessive with their stuff.
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