Canadian Dilemma

[Oldmanwesson]

Up here in Canada we have some screwy gun laws - as I'm sure you have heard...
Anyway, I have this near-mint .44 Double Action First Model or Third or whatever you want to call it - Dan Wesson's "New Model Navy No. 3" with a serial number over 50,000. Now we all know that Roy Jinks established that all the frames were made before 1899, but he only used this date because the cut-off year in the US for antiques is 1899. In Canada it's 1898. So, the good folks at our RCMP insist that mine could have been made after January 1, 1898 and therefore is not antique and needs to be registered as a restricted weapon. I have been trying for months - almost a year now - to convince them that it is quite likely that this gun was made before 1898. So far without any success. My only hope would be to find a gun with a higher serial number and some form of provenance to put it before January 1 1898. It would stand to reason that if one with a higher serial number than mine already existed before 1898, mine would have to have existed even earlier... Mine has serial number 50831. I have been in touch with Roy and he was kind enough to write in his factory letter that the frame may very well have been made before 1898 but the cops won't believe me - yet. Maybe one of you good folks has a higher number gun with pre-1898 provenance??
Oh, and here is my argument:
- 54,668 made from 1881 to 1898 = 17 years, =3,215 on average per year
- last year of production could have been SN51453 and up
- 50831 would have been made before 1898,especially if one considers that early and late production years may have seen lower numbers produced...

 

[ISCS Yoda]

You got an official letter from Roy and the CMP won't believe you? You know that's bureaucratic horsepuckey. If it was up to me I'd file what we call a declaratory judgment lawsuit against the police but I don't guess you can do that in Canada. Good luck - this campfire has a GREAT many experts with such thing.

 

[Oyeboteb]

.44-40? Or, .44 Russian?

How long is the Cylinder?

 

[dasnake]

Good luck

You are fighting against the cops who have been given carte blanche by the libs in this rathole, please keep fighting because we have an election coming and our only choice is the cons, good luck, because the cops are flounting their baloney ever since may 1st, bin dere dun dat.
Tried positioning myself with a 12-6 on a 39-2 and a 5906, had to briley both of them, increased them from 4" to 4 1/8" on both of them, 300.00 each, barrel and machining.

 

[ken158]

If a letter for a factory guy that documents anything will hold more status then what ever you will may get from a member here... and if the government does not honor that, why would they believe a citizen of anywhere (another country) ?? Good luck but your only other option is to get a different government official to examine Roy's letter with your gun.

 

[JSR III]

To Whom It May Concern, Smith and Wesson, .44 double action serial number 50831 was manufactured before January 1, 1898.

James Redfield
Smith and Wesson Collectors Association
Life Member 497
November 17, 2020

There you go....

 

[Mrnurse]

You cant beat the system as long as your citizens pass these laws. Thank God you didnt buy a MG 20 years ago ( 10K+ CND) Like my Bud did now he cant sell it or transfer it, and restricted transport laws.

 

[glowe]

To Whom It May Concern, Smith and Wesson, .44 double action serial number 50831 was manufactured before January 1, 1898.

James, don't you mean before January 1, 1899?

If I read the OP correctly, Canada judges guns as antiques if made before January 1, 1898.

 

[JSR III]

James, don't you mean before January 1, 1899?

If I read the OP correctly, Canada judges guns as antiques if made before January 1, 1898.

Figured I would leave some wiggle room......

 

[BMur]

Manufactured Date?

Sure wish Ed would chime in here with his Floor records. He can likely tell you the "DAY" of manufacture.

Murph

 

[Zzylx]

If it's 44 40 it's not antique
RCMP go by FRT not arbitrary opinions
You can download the FRT and look it up,

 

[Oyeboteb]

If it's 44 40 it's not antique
RCMP go by FRT not arbitrary opinions
You can download the FRT and look it up,

How does the .44-40 chambering make it not an antique?

 

[glowe]

All 44 Double Action revolvers are classified as antiques. Frames manufactured and serial numbered before 1899. It is not an arbitrary opinion, it is a fact and documentation exists in the form of letters to and from S&W and the BATFE. If Canada claims they are not antique, they are wrong. Problem is who is going to tell the authorities in Canada?

Besides, the 44 Double Action Frontier revolver had a serial number range from 1 to 15,340 and production started in 1886, so the OP's gun was originally built in 44 Russian caliber being in the 50,000 serial number range.

 

[Oyeboteb]

Up here in Canada we have some screwy gun laws - as I'm sure you have heard...
Anyway, I have this near-mint .44 Double Action First Model or Third or whatever you want to call it - Dan Wesson's "New Model Navy No. 3" with a serial number over 50,000. Now we all know that Roy Jinks established that all the frames were made before 1899, but he only used this date because the cut-off year in the US for antiques is 1899. In Canada it's 1898. So, the good folks at our RCMP insist that mine could have been made after January 1, 1898 and therefore is not antique and needs to be registered as a restricted weapon. I have been trying for months - almost a year now - to convince them that it is quite likely that this gun was made before 1898. So far without any success. My only hope would be to find a gun with a higher serial number and some form of provenance to put it before January 1 1898. It would stand to reason that if one with a higher serial number than mine already existed before 1898, mine would have to have existed even earlier... Mine has serial number 50831. I have been in touch with Roy and he was kind enough to write in his factory letter that the frame may very well have been made before 1898 but the cops won't believe me - yet. Maybe one of you good folks has a higher number gun with pre-1898 provenance??
Oh, and here is my argument:
- 54,668 made from 1881 to 1898 = 17 years, =3,215 on average per year
- last year of production could have been SN51453 and up
- 50831 would have been made before 1898,especially if one considers that early and late production years may have seen lower numbers produced...

Hi Oldmanwesson,

As we all should have asked right off the Bat -

"Please post some good pictures of this Revolver", so we can see what it is we are talking about.

Thanks!

Oyeboteb

 

[Oyeboteb]

All 44 Double Action revolvers are classified as antiques. Frames manufactured and serial numbered before 1899. It is not an arbitrary opinion, it is a fact and documentation exists in the form of letters to and from S&W and the BATFE. If Canada claims they are not antique, they are wrong. Problem is who is going to tell the authorities in Canada?

Besides, the 44 Double Action Frontier revolver had a serial number range from 1 to 15,340 and production started in 1886, so the OP's gun was originally built in 44 Russian caliber being in the 50,000 serial number range.

I think the problem is that Canada elected to define 'antique' as having to have been made prior to January 1st, 1898.

While the criteria in the US is Jan'y 1st 1899.

So, Canada is concerned that a Big Frame "DA" Top Break may have been made after Jan'y 1 1898, even if having been made before Jan'y 1 1899.

So they need some official 'proof' that all S & W Top Break .44 Frame size "DA"s had been made ( even if finished later, ) before Jan'y 1st 1898...which we all I am sure, are confident that the were.

Being as the .44-40 Chambering was a longer Frame and longer Cylinder, I do not see how a .44 Russian Frame and Cylinder would be altered to .44-40.

While, some of the erstwhile .44-40 "run" of Revolvers as far as Cylinder length and the longer Frame, were chambered in .44 Russian to fill orders for them in .44 Russian...and I have such a one myself.

 

[glowe]

Late 44 DAs all had the long cylinder for both 44 Russian and 44-40.

 

[Absalom]

You got an official letter from Roy and the CMP won't believe you? You know that's bureaucratic horsepuckey. If it was up to me I'd file what we call a declaratory judgment lawsuit against the police but I don't guess you can do that in Canada. Good luck - this campfire has a GREAT many experts with such thing.

I may have missed something, but I didn't see anywhere that the OP actually had any document from Roy or anybody else with a definitive statement. He says he is trying to "convince them that it's quite likely that this gun was made before 1898."

He also said that "we all know that Roy Jinks established ...". Well, I didn't know.

So before we continue the pointless verbal abuse of Canadian authorities, could somebody post actual documentation from Roy that would convince non-S&W nerds at some legally sustainable level?

 

[opoefc]

Here's the conundrum - The factory production log shows that .44DA, ser. # 50831 was assembled May 22, 1906, as part of a production run of 150 plated guns, using a frame from inventory and said frame was forged and placed in inventory prior to 1898, which makes it an antique in the eyes of the US laws. Canada is a different story, and I'm assuming Roy Jink's letter shows a ship date after May 22, 1906, as his letters are based on shipping ledgers, not on manufacturing ledgers. Whether you can get Canada to go on Roy's info. that the frame is a pre 1898 item or when the assembled gun was shipped, is the conundrum. Ed .

 

[Absalom]

..... Whether you can get Canada to go on Roy's info. that the frame is a pre 1898 item or when the assembled gun was shipped, is the conundrum. Ed .

And I think the only way to help the OP is indeed to assist him in acquiring something "official" in writing, over Roy's signature as S&W historian, which attests to this. If this exists, as was intimated above, somebody should post a copy or link.

Getting any bureaucrat to accept assurances of "quite likely" and even Roy's "may well have been made before 1898" in the letter (hedging his bet, in other words) as legal proof would seem futile, in any country.

 

[Zzylx]

Canada will classify it as antique if it's made before 1898 and not
in 32 colt or S&W ,38 colt or S&W ,38/40 ,44/40 or 45colt
Or 22 rf