Canadian Dilemma

[JSR III]

The way that I see this is:

1) there is a discrepancy between the countries as to what year is used for antique cut off. In the US it is pre 1899 and in Canada it is pre 1898.

2) Some jurisdictions also add a determination as to whether ammunition is currently made and readily available.

3) Although the BATF uses the year that the frame was made and serial number applied as the determination of birth date, another jurisdiction may use the date that the gun was assembled or shipped.

Since this is such a tight time frame for making the decision, it appears that Canada is choosing to err on the side of caution and refuse antique status.

Many of those that are in such positions would prefer to see no firearms in the hands of private citizens and therefore will use anything possible to deny another one.

I fear that unless Roy or some S&W company official was willing to state that the gun was made on say April 6, 1897, then the OP is swimming upstream.

 

[merl67]

I suspect Canada has people writing gun laws like our own that defy logic. Take the Colt Single Action Army 45 if I buy one made prior to 1898 it can shipped straight to my door no FFL required. The same gun made in 1900 up to 1970 has to go through a FFL 01 or 03 curio and relic, one made 1970- 2020 has to go through a FFL 01. Same gun, same caliber different rules based on it's birth year.

 

[BMur]

Who gets it right?

We are just as screwed up here! I once had to register 6 "clearly" antique 41 Rimfire derringers because the BATF lists them as Curios! FACT.

We only get one modern gun a month in California so it took me 7 Months of BS to finally get them all!

I'll never do it again! It was only because they were so cheap!
FFL holders are required to confirm status of any firearm sold on the BATF website. BATF actually listed them as Curios! The first model Remington double derringer was made in 1867!!! I had to register it!!! NO BS!! I still have ALL the paperwork.
I insisted that in the comments section of the application (DROS) the FFL holder write clearly " This is an antique firearm manufactured in 1867 and chambers black powder ammunition that is no longer manufactured!
So look in the mirror before you point the finger North. We don't have our act together here either!

If you don't believe me? Have any FFL holder access the firearms reference list for FFL holders on the BATF website! It's totally inaccurate!! They list many, many clearly antique guns as Curios!

I believe this is the sole reason that you see antiques for sale in various websites that are being sold by an FFL holder and in the listing you see clearly " FFL Required". Because the FFL license holder goes to the BATF website because they have little knowledge of this specific "antique", looks up the gun, and see's curio as the identifier. So they list FFL required!

Murph

 

[Oldmanwesson]

.44-40? Or, .44 Russian?

How long is the Cylinder?

.44 Russian, long strap ( 1 9/16)

 

[Oldmanwesson]

Hi Oldmanwesson,

As we all should have asked right off the Bat -

"Please post some good pictures of this Revolver", so we can see what it is we are talking about.

Thanks!

Oyeboteb

Here are some pictures. When I tried to apply for antique status
I found out:
1. The "cut-off" for antique vs. restricted is arbitrary in this case. I asked if, for future reference, they could give me the serial number cut-off above which these revolvers would not be considered antique anymore so I would know which ones to stay away from. They do not have such a limit. I also own SN 49536 which they classified as antique. So, it must be somewhere around the 50000 mark?
2. Only .44 Russian are considered antique (when in the right range, I guess) - .44-40, .38 and .32 are not, no matter how old.
3. The difference between "antique" and possibly "prohibited" can be a mere decimal or a few letters: take the Remington Double Deringer for example - if it has the two-line barrel address on it, it's antique, if it has a single line, it's prohibited. The two are identical in every other respect except that one was definitely made before 1898, the other may have been made as late as 1912 or so... I can give you a dozen more examples - take the iconic S&W Model 1 - it's prohibited because it is chambered for .22. The Model 1 1/2 in .32 rim fire is antique, but the same in .32 center fire is prohibited.
Oh, Canada...

 

[Oldmanwesson]

Sure wish Ed would chime in here with his Floor records. He can likely tell you the "DAY" of manufacture.

Murph

If you mean Ed Corbett, I have asked him, too. He does not have any records to indicate definitely that this one came off the floor before January 1, 1898. My only hope (ever) is to find a higher serial number gun which was definitely sold or owned by someone before January 1, 1898, and has documentation to that effect. In the meantime I will keep it as restricted (doesn't matter very much to me), and perhaps one day I will have to sell it back into the US as an antique. Up here the price difference is at least 50% between a restricted gun and an equivalent quality antique.

 

[delcrossv]

Here are some pictures.

That's a pretty one!

 

[Exmilcop]

I won't beat it to death; all the information is pretty much covered in the posts, but if the frame is pre-1898, it is most definitely antique, no matter the assembly or ship date. The .44 S&W cartridge is also on the obsolete caliber list. If the cops are hassling the OP, they're either ignorant of their own laws, or just engaging in some "let's screw this guy over" exercise. PS: forgot to mention, what a BEAUTIFUL pistol!

 

[merl67]

That is a beautiful example !

 

[applefish]

My only hope (ever) is to find a higher serial number gun which was definitely sold or owned by someone before January 1, 1898, and has documentation to that effect.

I'm not sure if you're going to have much luck, from some factory letters I've seen the last ones to ship out in 1897 are around the ~35,000-36,000 mark


Here's a letter of 36025 shipped Oct 1897

SMITH & WESSON .44 D. A. FIRST MODEL SHIPPED TO W. C.SCOTT & SONS , ENGLAND for sale


Here's a letter of 35388 shipped Oct 1897

Smith & Wesson .44 Double Action Top Break 1897 London

 

[Oldmanwesson]

Thank you for trying. Unfortunately (or fortunately) the 36xxx range is not disputed by the RCMP. When it gets over 50xxx they become "sticky"... I need to find one with a 51000-plus number which was shipped or somehow documented to have existed before January 1 1898.

 

[applefish]

Thank you for trying. Unfortunately (or fortunately) the 36xxx range is not disputed by the RCMP. When it gets over 50xxx they become "sticky"... I need to find one with a 51000-plus number which was shipped or somehow documented to have existed before January 1 1898.

Welp you might be in a pickle, someone on this canadian firearms forum states that the canadian cops draw the cutoff for pre-1898 at 42,000. But apparently you can call and ask?
CanadianGunNutz.com

 

[Oldmanwesson]

Welp you might be in a pickle, someone on this canadian firearms forum states that the canadian cops draw the cutoff for pre-1898 at 42,000. But apparently you can call and ask?
CanadianGunNutz.com

Thanks for the referal. I will see what they have to say. I have had several pieces of the same model approved, with serial numbers much higher than 42000, but not over 50000. Maybe there is hope...

 

[applefish]

Look what we have here old man wesson



CanadianGunNutz.com

 

[Oldmanwesson]

I'm on it! Looks like my persistence may have paid off. Let's see what the good folks at the Technical Division have to say...
Thank you all for taking on my challenge!

 

[Exmilcop]

Greetings! I have a newly acquired S&W Mod.3 in .44 Russian. I was sort of hoping that the serial number would be higher than yours since it came with the RCMP letter giving it antique status and that would have given you some creds with the firearms folks. Alas, mine is a very early run (4 digit serial), so I can't help you there. Hopefully the information you picked up off Canadian Gunnutz will allow to put this bed once an for all.

 

[moosedog]

To the OP. Thanks for giving us a taste of what to expect in the near future.

 

[Camster]

I suspect Canada has people writing gun laws like our own that defy logic. Take the Colt Single Action Army 45 if I buy one made prior to 1898 it can shipped straight to my door no FFL required. The same gun made in 1900 up to 1970 has to go through a FFL 01 or 03 curio and relic, one made 1970- 2020 has to go through a FFL 01. Same gun, same caliber different rules based on it's birth year.

And for me in NY, ALL SAAs have to be shipped to my local FFL.

 

[Oldmanwesson]

Hello, all who took part in this discussion.
Last update - a fellow collector in my neck of the woods has not just one, but TWO DA first models in the 51,000 and 53,000 serial range, and he has the approval letters from the RCMP!! So, I submitted his copies and asked politely to be given the same consideration for my gun.
I have not heard back from them yet. I'm sure they're thinking about it...

I will let you know.

 

[Oldmanwesson]

YAAY! I just received my antique letter for SN 50831!! I'm going to frame this one. Thank you all for your input and assistance. It sure paid off. RCMP Technical Division does consider alternative evidence occasionally.