I'm just curious. I purchased a lot of once fired brass both in .38 Special and .45 ACP. All are mixed head stamps. My question is this: Is there a significant difference, without regard to caliber, between regular brass, +P and +P+? I'm just loading them all with what I consider a mid range load for both calibers and I'm not one to sort by head stamp. Whatever I pick out of my supply goes to the range and goes boom. It all makes holes in the target and performs better than my shaky arm can hold it. Occasionally I surprise myself with a good target.
Case Differences
- Thread starter Krell1
- Start date
Alk8944
US Veteran
Generally, within a specific manufacturer and caliber, the only difference between standard, +P and +P+ is the headstamp. It is strictly to designate the load, not indicate a difference in the brass itself. There will be normal lot-to-lot variation, regardless of headstamp.
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As stated above there is no difference in most brass by name in +P.
Per Starline the 45 +P is a little stronger in the web area.
Recent thread:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/373507-38-spec-p-brass-question.html
Per Starline the 45 +P is a little stronger in the web area.
Recent thread:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/373507-38-spec-p-brass-question.html
As stated it is the same ...... just loaded standard or +P in most cases. (pun) 
I like having a few +P cases..........always nice to know when you are picking up a maximum load by the case markings, just in case the ammo gets mixed up.
I have 38 J frames, also K & L, so it nice to have "Standard" and +P cases to let me know what I have in my ammo boxes.
Enjoy those cases.
I like having a few +P cases..........always nice to know when you are picking up a maximum load by the case markings, just in case the ammo gets mixed up.
I have 38 J frames, also K & L, so it nice to have "Standard" and +P cases to let me know what I have in my ammo boxes.
Enjoy those cases.
This question comes up fairly often and the OP is given the standard
answer that 38 spl brass is all the same from a manufacturer except
for the headstamp. But in the current issue, #290, of Handloader
magazine the author responding to the same question from a reader
says there are significant differences in case thickness and strength
in 38 spl brass. The question was posed regarding heavy loads and
the author states that +P and +P+ brass is stronger and should be
used in heavy loads. With standard pressure loads it probably doesn't
matter. The author backs up his response with personal experience.
answer that 38 spl brass is all the same from a manufacturer except
for the headstamp. But in the current issue, #290, of Handloader
magazine the author responding to the same question from a reader
says there are significant differences in case thickness and strength
in 38 spl brass. The question was posed regarding heavy loads and
the author states that +P and +P+ brass is stronger and should be
used in heavy loads. With standard pressure loads it probably doesn't
matter. The author backs up his response with personal experience.
Weigh as a group 10 standard .38 cases, 10 +P cases, and 10 +P+ cases, all of the same brand. (All brass or all nickeled only) Is there a significant difference from one group to the others? Therein lies the answer to if one headstamp is stronger/thicker than another.
OP, I mix headstamps with little or no afterthought. For range/plinking/etc. it makes no noticeable difference. Any error in accuracy is totally attributed to my shaky hands.
Ultra precision match ammo may be another story, where bullets are weighed and separated in to batches, powder is weighed down to the last granule, etc. That's reloading far in excess of what I (or the majority of reloaders) need to do.
OP, I mix headstamps with little or no afterthought. For range/plinking/etc. it makes no noticeable difference. Any error in accuracy is totally attributed to my shaky hands.
Ultra precision match ammo may be another story, where bullets are weighed and separated in to batches, powder is weighed down to the last granule, etc. That's reloading far in excess of what I (or the majority of reloaders) need to do.
I agree on what you said about mixing headstamps. I started this thread and was merely curious about any differences in case construction. If I ever get to the point where I start weighing bullets, cases and powder to the last flake, somebody needs to stop me. My shaky hands only allow for so much accuracy and any concern about segregating headstamps and loading that precisely really won't improve my ability. I already shoot the most accurate pistols I could possibly buy so I think I've gone as far as I can. In the past (hands and arms were much more stable) accuracy was important to me. Now I just want to go to the range and enjoy shooting and competing with myself.
David R
Member
Krell1 Please weigh some standard, +p and +p+ and get back to us. I am curious.
David
David
As soon as I can get my butt in gear today I plan on doing some reloading. After reading the posts I'll weigh 10 of each and see what results I get. My guess is not a big difference. Although I have mixed headstamps, the majority are Winchester so I'll try to weigh the same manufacturer. BTW these are .38 Spec cases. I was loading .45 ACP last week and counted 15 different headstamps in the roughly 1000 cases I loaded. I really have to get a life.
Having not read the article,
I am curious as to how the author "backs up his response"??
Does he have any measurements (data) which proves this?
As posted above by Starline their brass is no different (Starline makes brass for several LARGE ammo companies. Some Hornady brass is made by Starline.
H Richard
US Veteran
It depends on what you are shooting. If you are plinking and casual target shooting mixed headstamps have little effect. If you are serious and going to a important match such as Camp Perry, you would want to be much more selective. If I was going to Camp Perry, or any registered bullseye shoot, I would start with brass all from the same lot. The I would trim to all the exact same length. Then I would weigh the load individually one at a time. I would use Federal Match Primers. I would use my carefully selected bullets, and sorted by weight so all were the same. Is there a difference? You bet, but it only shows up if you are capable of shooting near perfect scores. We did a comparison a few years ago, with 38's, and did precisely what I described and shot from a Ransom rest, then shot some mixed headstamp loads loaded on a Dillon. Shot at 50 ft. on a B3 T&R target. The mixed load shot into about 1 1/2" group, but the precision loaded rounds shot into an under 1" group, all in the X ring.
lhump1961
US Veteran
Did a quick check on 38sp vs. 38+P. 10 cases of Winchester 38sp comes in at around 641g...10 cases of Winchester 38+P comes in at about 645g.
Given that 10 cases of S&B 38sp tipped the scale at 693g and 10 Blazer 38sp at 651g I would call the +P's the same. Funny as I was checking head stamps that probably 95% of my +P brass is Winchester so I didn't take the time to sort through the +P stuff to find enough of something else to reference against.
Results kind of confirm the notion that +P brass is not noticeably different...at least in my highly scientific testing!
All the brass I used was deprimed and cleaned in a Thumbler Tumbler.
edit: I've seen posts in the past where some have weighed finished rounds in an attempt to verify the charge...I think this demonstrates why that is a bad idea!
Given that 10 cases of S&B 38sp tipped the scale at 693g and 10 Blazer 38sp at 651g I would call the +P's the same. Funny as I was checking head stamps that probably 95% of my +P brass is Winchester so I didn't take the time to sort through the +P stuff to find enough of something else to reference against.
Results kind of confirm the notion that +P brass is not noticeably different...at least in my highly scientific testing!
All the brass I used was deprimed and cleaned in a Thumbler Tumbler.
edit: I've seen posts in the past where some have weighed finished rounds in an attempt to verify the charge...I think this demonstrates why that is a bad idea!
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Well Rule3 just pick up your copy of this month's Handloader
magazine and read the article, you should have received it
in the mail by now. Don't even try to tell me you don't
subscribe, I know better, a dedicated reloader like yourself?
The author discretely avoided naming case brands and his
first clue that all were not equally strong was the complete
case separations just in front of the head on the first firing
with a heavy load. But I'm just the messenger. Read the
article and write and challenge him to defend his results.
S&WIowegan
US Veteran
I won't try to argue this question one way or the other. When I load .38 Specials, I use one particular headstamp for each type of load I make, i.e. 148gr HBWCs, 158 gr LSWCs, 158gr LRNs, 180gr hunting load, etc.
I sort by headstamp because I can and so I have some comfort the results aren't affected by differences in the brass. Doesn't prove a thing, just my quirk.
FYI.....a friend sold me a batch of match ammo he had from his PPC days decades ago. The stuff was made by a commercial reloader and is mixed headstamp with nickel cases thrown in too. The PPC shooters apparently weren't concerned about sorting.
I sort by headstamp because I can and so I have some comfort the results aren't affected by differences in the brass. Doesn't prove a thing, just my quirk.
FYI.....a friend sold me a batch of match ammo he had from his PPC days decades ago. The stuff was made by a commercial reloader and is mixed headstamp with nickel cases thrown in too. The PPC shooters apparently weren't concerned about sorting.
I realize you are the messenger, just curious. From what you say it sounds anecdotal and no actually testing. He would have to have had some kind of pressure tester.
If Starline says their brass is no different in 38 Special then I believe that.
They make the stuff.No I do not get it. I canceled ALL my Magazine subscriptions long ago. To many Kimber ads!
(just too many ads)I do receive American Rifleman.
FWIW, mebbe nuttinn'. Although I did this several years ago, and don't have the specific weights handy, I weighed 20 each Standard .38 Special, and .38 Special +P cases. Although I don't have the specifics handy, I used 2 manufacturer's brass. So about 80 cases were weighed and there was no appreciable difference in weight; +P cases were no heavier than standard...
A case can "weigh" more but not be stronger in the areas that count.
Were is that Texas Fencepost?
Were is that Texas Fencepost
?
Alk8944
US Veteran
Absolutely correct!!!!!!!!!!!
Weight cannot be used to compare relative case strength, and anyone who claims it can simply does not have a basic grasp of physics and metallurgy.
What can be determined by relative case weight is internal case volume, nothing else! Two cases of the same weight will have statistically identical internal volume, when fired in the same chamber. STRENGTH between the two cases can vary greatly depending on distribution of metal within the cases and differences in hardness due to work-hardening and annealing during manufacture, and subsequent work-hardening as a result of expansion (firing) and sizing cycles the case has undergone.
Until such time as statements from all manufacturers are available which indicate that either they use different specifications for standard, +P and +P+ cartridges, or that they do not, this question is unresolvable! So far there is only a report that says that Star Line has reported that all cases are manufactured the same, regardless of headstamp.
alwslate, all that can be said from the anecdotal report in the Handloader article is the cases that failed, failed, and those that didn't, didn't. The claimed result could be a result of any of several manufacturing defects within the specific lot of brass which gave failures. Without the author being willing to name names the simple result that one manufacturers specific headstamp sometimes failed under certain test conditions means exactly nothing.
This arguement is identical to the H-110/296 fight that went on for years. Even after the manufacturer (St. Marks) and distributor (Hodgdons & Winchester) acknowledged that the two brands were absolutely identical there were still those who still wouldn't believe. They claimed one "burned cleaner", gave higher velocity, etc. based on their personal, and limited "testing". I am sure there are still those who claim there is a difference! I predict that even if Winchester, Remington, and several other manufacturers would release official statements that all of their (name caliber) cases were absolutely identical except for headstamp there would still be those who would continue to claim differently!
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This thread needs to be deleted. It contains way too much common sense and insufficient false precision.
We will now resume our regular reloading schedule.
We will now resume our regular reloading schedule.
S&WIowegan
US Veteran
The gunwriter being referred to is Brian Pearce and he really knows his stuff. He also does genuine pressure testing. I saw his comment on Starline +P brass and it surprised me. I am aware of Starline saying the only difference is the headstamp.
Even the best are entitled to a mistake now and then.
Even the best are entitled to a mistake now and then.
ALK9944 did you read the article? The reason I didn't mention Brian
Pearce by name is that I'm not sure exactly what part of any article
can be quoted here without being deleted. With all due respect to
some revered gun writers of the past I think Brian Pearce is without
any doubt one of the best gun writers ever. After reading numerous
articles of his I have concluded that he must be doing his own
pressure testing as mentioned above. Another conclusion I have come
to from reading numerous posts here is that some people will, no
matter what, defer to their own "logical" minds rather than any
testing or experience from others including trained ballisticians. I
think this is commonly called "believing what you want to believe."
Pearce by name is that I'm not sure exactly what part of any article
can be quoted here without being deleted. With all due respect to
some revered gun writers of the past I think Brian Pearce is without
any doubt one of the best gun writers ever. After reading numerous
articles of his I have concluded that he must be doing his own
pressure testing as mentioned above. Another conclusion I have come
to from reading numerous posts here is that some people will, no
matter what, defer to their own "logical" minds rather than any
testing or experience from others including trained ballisticians. I
think this is commonly called "believing what you want to believe."
m657
Member
re: "Is there a difference? You bet, but it only shows up if you are capable of shooting near perfect scores."
This certainly has been *my* experience.....*kaff*kaff*....
After years of attempting to account for the astonishing range of variances in ballistic performance despite my best efforts, my best current working conclusion is "I've just washed my pistol and can't do a thing with it!"
This certainly has been *my* experience.....*kaff*kaff*....
After years of attempting to account for the astonishing range of variances in ballistic performance despite my best efforts, my best current working conclusion is "I've just washed my pistol and can't do a thing with it!"
As has been pointed out above there is more to the story
than just case weight. Take two pieces of tool steel for
example. Heat treat one of them. Even though both will
weigh the same the heat treated piece will be far tougher.
Do a Google search of Difference in +P brass and see how many times this topic has been discussed.
Look at the SAAMI specs for the cartridge they are both listed together (38 Special and 38 Special+P) they are the same.
The pressure of 38 special is 17,000
The pressure of 38 Special +P is 18,500
So is there a need for a different case construction for 1,500 PSI???????
Believe the Brass manufacturer or a magazine article. As you say, believe what you want to believe.
For the OP original question, there is no difference in loading 38 special or +P.
Look at the SAAMI specs for the cartridge they are both listed together (38 Special and 38 Special+P) they are the same.
The pressure of 38 special is 17,000
The pressure of 38 Special +P is 18,500
So is there a need for a different case construction for 1,500 PSI???????
Believe the Brass manufacturer or a magazine article. As you say, believe what you want to believe.
For the OP original question, there is no difference in loading 38 special or +P.
H Richard
US Veteran
Even if there would be a minimal difference in the "volume" between standard and +P cases the other variables in manufacture (either commercial or handload), would negate that variable. This is why commercial ammunition that shoots into 3" at 25 yards is considered very accurate ammo. If you're going to a club match load whatever brass you have all together, but If you're going to a professional match where a 1/4" difference in accuracy will make a difference, get all the same case heads. Then make sure all your other loading steps are as consistent.
Rule3 Rule3, do you read your loading manuals??? According
to Speer and every other source I have read the standard
and +P pressure limits when expressed in psi are 17,000
and 20,000. I agree with you that for the OP's purpose
of loading target and plinking loads case strength is not an
issue. But the question was, are all 38 spl cases the same
except for headstamp? Well no, it seems. Brian Pearce
said in his article that some cases separated on the first
firing with HEAVY loads. Do you actually think he lied?
For what purpose? So, believe the brass manufacturer
and not the guy who said his cases separated? Oh my
head. I'm gona sip some good Scotch whisky and go to
bed. Read your manuals. Subscribe to Handloader. Later.
Yes, you are correct. I posted old incorrect PSI data.
17 and 20 K is the SAAMI Spec. A 3,000 psi difference rather than 1,500.
None of my manuals indicate the use of 38 special +P Brass when loading 38 +P loads.
The SAAMI spec shows 38 spl and 38 +P together under the same dimensions.
17 and 20 K is the SAAMI Spec. A 3,000 psi difference rather than 1,500.
None of my manuals indicate the use of 38 special +P Brass when loading 38 +P loads.
The SAAMI spec shows 38 spl and 38 +P together under the same dimensions.
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