CCW @ gunshop etiquette question.

[beach elvis]

Howdy.
I work part-time behind the gun counter of a big box.
Yesterday, a couple of mid-50's-ish fellas came in together.

They had at least the appearance of average-type guys. (No 3-day beard, dirty flannel shirt, that kind of thing which is fairly common around here.) No judgment about that, merely observation.

These 2 were both pretty impressed with their own knowledge of firearms. Sometimes it's fun to listen to folks pontificate to each other about firearms-related subjects of which they have little actual knowledge. You know the type, "A .380 kills with one shot just like a .357 magnum but a .357 will knock both you and the other guy to the ground." etc., etc.

So these fellas are standing in front of the case where the 1911's are displayed. One of the guys explains to his buddy about how 1911's were designed to be carried safely with a round in the chamber and the hammer cocked. He then states that all 1911's are pieces of **** except for Kimbers and that's what he tells everyone at his CCW classes.

Well, his buddy got all gee-whiz about a 3" bbl. Kimber with Crimson Trace grips. I, of course, offered him a look at it. After taking it out of the case, removing the trigger lock, clearing it, dropping the mag, and locking the action open, I laid the pistol sideways on the counter mat with one hand and the mag with the other. He then picks up the gun, action still open, and turns it this way and that.

The "CCW instructor" snatched the pistol from his friend's hand, inserts the mag, hits the release which, of course, slams the slide forward on an empty chamber. He then grips the pistol in a Weaver stance and puts the laser dot SQUARE ON MY CHEST. "There, that's how it's done.", he tells his friend.

As I was in the process of trying to quickly figure out how to tactfully mention that it's frightfully bad form to sight a laser on the chest of someone other than one who might intend him harm, he then states that his Kimber is better because it's bigger, draws his CCW weapon, declares it as being in Condition One, and lays it down on the counter with the muzzle pointed directly at ME!

Fortunately for myself, he became absorbed in a diatribe to his buddy about autopistols over revolvers in general, which gave me time to sidestep, reattach the trigger lock, and replace the display pistol back in the case. I managed to busy myself elsewhere behind the counter and listen in case they wanted something else.

The chain of events bothered me the whole rest of my shift and even after I got home. I kept asking myself, "What should I have done?" I know what I WANTED to do but I'd no longer be an employee if I did.

So, I'm hoping for some schoolin' from you folks and some other perspectives. Was I just bein' squirrely or should none of that have ever happened?

(Sorry about the tome-like post but I felt like I should provide as many details for the sake of a thorough account.)

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

 

[RdrBill]

Sir.
Take his gun and unload it. Call store security. Keep the ammo behind the counter until store security arives. Have them escort him and his gun out of the building. They will give him back his ammo and have the presence to deal with any of his issues.
There should be signs in the front window of your big box store explaining what is allowed for firearms carry and display in the building.
He was a danger to you and a liability to the store if any customer had an issue with his conduct.
Bill@Yuma

 

[Erich]

Those guys were way wrong. You would have been within your rights to throw them out of the store - and if the owner hadn't backed you up, you would have been righteous to spit on the floor on your way out the door.

That said, I don't know how bad you need the job, and I don't know your boss. If he's such a jerk that he would fire you for telling those guys to leave, you need to find another gig.

When I worked in a gun store in '88 or so, some idjit came in and pointed a chambered .25 at me, with the hammer back. I gently pushed it away and took it from his hand and told him he'd just pointed a loaded gun at me. He told me it was unloaded (he'd removed the mag - not a mag safety model, BTW), and just about fouled himself when I jacked the slide and dropped the .25 on the counter. He clearly felt bad and stupid, and the boss then came over and told him to get out and never come back. That was nice.

I had another fool stick a Cold Steel tanto alongside my neck "showing me how it's done". I was wearing a .357 and was trying to decide whether to shoot him. Totally still in the store. A regular customer walked behind the counter and picked up the store gun, a 1911, pointed it at the back of the guy's head and dropped the safety off. It was loud. The guy looked behind him, and Mike said, "Put it on the counter and step away or I'll kill you." The guy did, and I told him to leave.

I owe Mike a lunch, now that I think about it.

Glad it came out okay for you, but that was wrong that it happened, and I'm sorry to hear that it did.

 

[Wheelgunner840]

When he pointed the store gun at you with the laser on your chest you should have immediately sidestepped and screamed (and I mean loud!) MUZZLE!!! I then would have told him that as a CCW instructor he should know better than to point a gun, any gun whether it is perceived to be empty or not, at another person. I would have also told him that he needs to review the golden rules of gun safety.

That is what I would have done. It never would have gotten to the point of him drawing his own carry piece.

As far as him drawing his CCW, I would have told him not to do it as soon as I saw what he was doing. Either case would have been good reason to ask him to leave the store. There is absolutely no reason you should have to put up with that kind of stuff.


WG840

 

[scooter123]

One local gunshop that I frequent has a large notice in the front door to the effect that drawing ANY handgun from concealment WILL result in your looking down the barrels of MANY handguns and MAY result in your being shot. They also have a notice that any guns brought into the shop that is not carried concealed must be in a case, walk in with a rifle you're looking to trade and you'll get the same reaction. To be honest, I don't think they are kidding, it's about 5 miles north of Detroit and they take their security pretty seriously.

IMO, this wasn't just a lapse in judgement, it is something that shouldn't ever be done. I'm surprized that your shop didn't show any reaction to this, in my area you'd be banned for life at best.

 

[billdeserthills]

I am a dealer also, and we do lots of gun shows-- that said, nobody likes being swept with a firearm, loaded or not,
However I will honestly say that it no longer bothers me, if I am swept with a gun I just took out of my case & handed to a client- Sorry, but it is just bad form for me, the owner, to care, especially when I know I just handed over an unloaded gun. If I react badly I just lost a sale & really, it is not my job to tell my customer how to behave. In your case, however, you will have to make up your own mind. If you will be bothered by being swept by an unloaded gun I think you'll need a new job. However, you showed that the gun was empty and the guy's friend then took an oppertunity to show you that he was the biggest jerk around. Trust me on this guy, worse things will happen to you.

 

[Kanewpadle]

Sir.
Take his gun and unload it. Call store security. Keep the ammo behind the counter until store security arives. Have them escort him and his gun out of the building. They will give him back his ammo and have the presence to deal with any of his issues.
There should be signs in the front window of your big box store explaining what is allowed for firearms carry and display in the building.
He was a danger to you and a liability to the store if any customer had an issue with his conduct.
Bill@Yuma

+1. I would have LOUDLY embarassed the hell out of the idiot.

 

[venomballistics]

if the coffee didnt do it for ya .. THAT would wake ya right up.
that one needs to be culled and has a fair chance of getting himself into an unintended firefight.

 

[RobertJ.]

I worked behind the gun counter at a sporting goods store in Seattle for about four years. I can't count how many times I was muzzle swept. By guys who knew all about firearms (according to them). I could usually tell in about 30 seconds if they knew anything at all about guns. What really used to get me is when I'd have a customer who was new to guns, and needing reliable info, and one of these guys would hijack the conversation and feed him crap. I'd usually do my best to discreetly tell the beginner to come back and see me later.

 

[YogiBear]

Aloha,

As a customer in a gun shop, I've had guns pointed in my direction.

I have told that person in a very LOUD voice to point the gun Elsewhere.
Didn't take any BS about it being Unloaded either.

Worse is when the gun store clerk sweeps you. Yep, he got told the same thing.

As an NRA basic firearms instructor, seems like our students are safer than some long time shooters.

 

[bigshot500]

The level of morons who carry never cease to amaze me...dealing with people like this needs to be done swiftly and carefully. Had he put the dot on my chest, would have yielded a quick shuffle step either way followed by a grab to relinqish the kimber. The sheer audacity that this idiot would draw his weapon from his side and display his weapon in any manner, shows his lack of training or care for the additional level of safety and respect one must have when they carry.

One must have zero tollerance of anyone who points a weapon at another person unless their life or someone close is at risk.

 

[Moonman]

Some supposed firearms experts and trainers are really just MALL NINJA'S at heart.

 

[novalty]

I had a similar experience from the other side of the counter. Last year stopped into my local gun-shop. Was looking around at the display and salesman came up to see if he could help. Then had to show me a gun fitted with Crimson Trace, and said their store dog went crazy about the laser dot. He then placed the dot on my chest as a "joke" to see if the rather large dog would jump on me. Needless to say I wasn't overly enthusiastic about having a firearm pointed at me, or a large dog potentially jumping on me while perusing firearms.

 

[Kelly Green]

The clown should have his CCW instructor license pulled.

 

[SF180A]

WOW!

After reading then re-reading this post. It would definitely sit down with the gun shop owner to review his security and contingency plans for protecting his employees and customers.

You can replace property loss do to theft, but a loss of life or serious injury do to someones poor judgment in the store is irreplaceable and could be an easy fix.

As others have said, posting a warning sign at the entrance is a start, having the mindset to respond to various situations will also help, be it dealing with a gun clown (sexual intellectual), or god forbid someone who wants to do you and others harm, take your firearms, ammo, money or your life away from you.

There will always be some sort of Monday morning quarterbacking after the fact, but if you discuss this in detail to the owner, review the local self defense laws, consider some type of plan to deal with an armed customer that is well meaning or not. You will be well on you way to prevent or handle this type of situation if it ever presents itself again.

I am not sure how I would have dealt with this situation myself with not being in the actual event as it unfolded, but having a CCW permit and like to think good judgment to go along with it, may have responded differently to your situation. Again this is just my opinion from someone who has 5 Iraqi deployments under my belt as well as walked a few miles as a LEO.

I wish you all the very best and hope his never happens again. That being said, I would hope for the best, but prepare for the worst.

SF180A/Brent

Remember the first fast accurate shot goes home, and that needs to be you!

 

[Andy Griffith]

That instructor should not be an instructor. I would have taken away his pistol, called the sheriff's department and report an incident, so his permit would be revoked. I have no patience with jackwagons.

The fact that he pulled a loaded gun and pointed it at anything without just cause...is inexcusable.

There is no reason whatsoever to remove/draw a concealed weapon for any reason- save taking it off to go in where it isn't permitted, or the end of the day- and even then, it should be done in a safe, discreet and respectful manner. It needs to be drawn when it's needed- no other time- never to show someone. Showing a concealed handgun is usually the cause of ND's.

 

[26Ford]

REPORT HIM!!!!!!

Report that so called " instructor " to the state and what ever party issued his credentials. I am not doubting you sir, but that story seems almost to crazy to be believable. Theres an old saying, " those who cant do.......teach ". That guy, obviously shouldn't do either. 26

 

[DeadAye]

That instructor should not be an instructor. I would have taken away his pistol, called the sheriff's department and report an incident, so his permit would be revoked. I have no patience with jackwagons.

The fact that he pulled a loaded gun and pointed it at anything without just cause...is inexcusable.

I agree with Andy (love your show, btw ).
Any dolt that will point a gun at someone WITHOUT CAUSE will eventually shoot someone --- *Accidentally* It could have been you Right Then And There..........

 

[P&R Fan]

I too would find out where he is an instructor and have a very serious talk with whomever is in charge of overseeing him. There is no excuse for that kind of behavior.
I have been swept by guns at gun shops by both employees and customers. The first time I will be nice and just reach out and push the muzzle away from me. If it continues, I will very succinctly tell them of the error of their ways. I do not suffer fools when my life is at stake.

 

[ladder13]

Wasn't a "gun store",per se, was a "big box store", NOT that it matters at all. Probably a Walmart, Cabelas or Dicks.