Cessna 560 Crashes

[Secundius]

I had a good friend and retired Air Force fighter pilot that told me a story about a particular early jet he was fond of because he could basically open a window for fresh air ventilation at lower elevations. While on a training mission for some reason or another they rolled up above the oxygen limit (10K?) and Roger failed to close the window, loosing conciousness, his wing man was yelling at him as he slowly went into an easy swing towards earth. Fortunately he came to before impact and pulled out...stuff happens.

Economical cruising speed for the Cessna 560 is ~350-kts! Opening a window at that speed while plausible also host several problems for the flight crew, not the least of which is something being sucked into the cockpit! Safe operating speed for a plane used in parachute jumping is less than 150-kts…


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[TJm15.38]

Can an A/C lose pressurization so slowly the the cabin pressure alarm will not activate ?

That should not happen unless the warning system is inoperative. Checking all the warning systems and lights is usually done during preflight. I can't speak for the aircraft in question, but most modern aircraft I have flown have a cabin low pressure warning light that will illuminate at 10,000 feet cabin altitude. Some aircraft also have an audible warning as well as the light. When the warning light/audible warning illuminates/activates, pilot emergency actions are required. Normally this involves donning oxygen masks for all crew, activating passenger oxygen (unless the aircraft system does it automatically) and executing an emergency descent to some appropriate lower altitude (terrain permitting).

 

[arjay]

I apologize for the thread drift, but your post reminded me of something...

In April of last year I visited the Jungfraujoch, which is a saddle in the Swiss Alps near Grindelwald. At the viewing deck in the visitors center, I was 11,716 feet above sea level. (It was also 1° Fahrenheit, with a 20 mph wind!) Breathing was very difficult, I had to take every step carefully, and I was getting nauseated.

There are stores and shops there, and I was amazed watching the locals and the employees who were moving around normally, with no apparent difficulty. I stayed up there about 1 hour before taking the cogwheel train back down the mountain.

The view was magnificent, but I won't be going back there...

I live at 5000+' and have spent a lot of years skiing and hiking at higher elevations,but in my mid 50's to early 60s hiking long distances at 12-13000' was grueling and did affect my judgement significantly.

 

[Retired W4]

Acclimation to higher altitudes happens over time. I flew a U-8F (Queen Air) for five years and a U-21A (~KA-90) for three and spent a lot of time at 9-10,000 feet. Both were unpressurized. Running 8 miles a week helped as well. Unfortunately nothing can prepare you for life at 39,000.

 

[Gamecock]

10-4, beemerguy.

I had the exact same experience on Haleakalā.

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

Let us not forget the sad tale of Bo Rein who died under similar circumstances. Sent LSU football into a tailspin that they could not recover from until they hired Nick Saban.

 

[Rudi]

I still think it was strange to have only 1 pilot flying. I got to fly in a Lear Jet once, got to sit in the jump seat for 30 min. or so. Two pilots. Must have been a "major malfunction". Will be interesting to see the final report.

 

[ACORN]

I watched a YouTube video last night where an "expert" said it was not a loss of pressurization, citing the military chase plane pilot said he could see the pilot slumped over to the right. He stated that in the plane had lost pressurization the windows would be frosted and opaque. It's his opinion the pilot suffered a medical issue. It's also his opinion the passengers were awake during the spiral down.
Just putting this out for discussion.

 

[Gamecock]

I doubt it, Acorn. Someone would have figured out how to use the radio. And would have waved at the chase plane.

 

[THE PILGRIM]

he

War Story -
Once at Le Shima Island near Okinawa, we lost two guys in the ocean.
You might recall that's where Ernie Pyle was killed.
Then just after we lost those guys, a Japanese Trawler South of there pulled up a body. The remains appeared to be Military and wound up in the Morgue near Naha, Okinawa.
In a an effort to shut down those Urban Legends, 'they found a body and it could be my Husband. But nobody told me nothing,' our Flight Surgeon was invited down to view the remains. That was Dr. Larry Thompson out of Knoxville.
One lady was still on base and he told her in person, 'I viewed those remains.
I can guarantee you 100% that is not your Husband.'
Then he sent a letter to the other Lady.
Larry told us the body was in old fashioned Pressure Suit.
It had air in it so floated below the surface.
That's the type of suit the early U-2 Pilots wore.
So it's a good guess he was a Chinese U-2 Pilot.
We trained and provided U-2s to the Chinese who overflew Mainland China.

 

[LVSteve]

I still think it was strange to have only 1 pilot flying. I got to fly in a Lear Jet once, got to sit in the jump seat for 30 min. or so. Two pilots. Must have been a "major malfunction". Will be interesting to see the final report.

From what I've read, single pilot operation of this type is pretty common, maybe even the norm.

Does the FAA require a plane of this type to be flown with the cockpit door locked? Somehow I doubt it. If there was access to the cockpit, you might wonder why the passengers wouldn't at least try the radio if the pilot was incapacitated. I reckon everyone on board was out for the count.

 

[M29since14]

I still think it was strange to have only 1 pilot flying. I got to fly in a Lear Jet once, got to sit in the jump seat for 30 min. or so. Two pilots. Must have been a "major malfunction". Will be interesting to see the final report.

Rudi, you think that's strange, just wait until they try to start herding us on to a commercial airliner that has no onboard pilot at all.

 

[ACORN]

I still think it was strange to have only 1 pilot flying. I got to fly in a Lear Jet once, got to sit in the jump seat for 30 min. or so. Two pilots. Must have been a "major malfunction". Will be interesting to see the final report.

Seems foolish to me.
Anyone can die at any time.
From what I understand there may have been no "black box".
I don't know what clues that there may be discernible after impact at that velocity.

 

[LVSteve]

Seems foolish to me.
Anyone can die at any time.
From what I understand there may have been no "black box".
I don't know what clues that there may be discernible after impact at that velocity.

We shall have to wait and see if the forensics process can reveal anything. "We don't know" is often a valid response when it comes to air accidents without a black box.

 

[Gamecock]

impact at that velocity.

In the 1960s, a Beechcraft Bonanza crashed in Hitchcock Woods, behind Aiken Estates, near where I lived in Aiken, SC.

It appeared a VFR pilot got himself into a storm, and, as many non-instrument trained pilots do, believed his butt and not his instruments, and flew it straight into the ground.

I bring it up to you now to say how complete the destruction was. It made a 20' deep crater. Identification was impossible. They found small pieces of people.

JFK Jr made the identical mistake.

May not have been as bad for this crash. I.e., it may have fallen, rather than having been flown into the ground. But, yeah, all are equally dead.

 

[ACORN]

From what I've heard the pilot was slumped to the right. Plane banked right and spiraled into the ground.

 

[Secundius]

I doubt it, Acorn. Someone would have figured out how to use the radio. And would have waved at the chase plane.

If the pilot was unconscious, then it's also possible that passengers were also unconscious. Also the plane was making a gradual descent, where the passengers in the passenger compartment might not have been aware of their impending doom…


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[Rudi]

Rudi, you think that's strange, just wait until they try to start herding us on to a commercial airliner that has no onboard pilot at all.

My flying days are long over. Happy about that, watch too many Mentour Pilot vids.

 

[Beemerguy53]

I live at 5000+' and have spent a lot of years skiing and hiking at higher elevations,but in my mid 50's to early 60s hiking long distances at 12-13000' was grueling and did affect my judgement significantly.

I've been to your fair state a number of times, and experienced mild symptoms in Pueblo and Colorado Springs. Back in 2005, when I was "only" 52, I went to the top of Pike's Peak -- the highest I've ever been outside of an airliner -- but I doubt I could do that today.

 

[Retired W4]

Single pilot ops in a C-560 is not the norm. A 500 or 525 yes, but a 560 requires special qualification. As for the last minute of that flight, I'll bet you $ it finally ran out of fuel. When that happens the autopilot will try to maintain the selected altitude, loosing airspeed in the process, until a full stall occurs.

No line pilot trains for a stall in that aircraft. The sym, yes. We are trained to react to the approach to the stall (stall warning horn). If you ignore that you get stick shaker. I would fly with the factory production test pilot on accepting flights for the Army and we would do full stalls in the C560/UC-35. I can tell you, from first hand experience, a stall in that thing is quick and ugly. It will flip inverted in a heart beat. If you let the stall go that far, good luck.

As an aside, no post crash fire almost always indicates no fuel on board.