Choosing Your Handguns in War

[rubiranch]

I wish I had it, it was definitely worn and had areas where the nickel had flaked off, but would have been priceless to me.

Sorry to hear that you didn't end up with you dad's gun.

 

[Bat Guano]

Pistols

When I was (much) younger and still learning the game, I bought a few books on pistol shooting,etc. I say few because that was the case: FEW. First up, of course, was "Sixguns" by Elmer Keith.I also picked up "Pistols--A Modern Encylopedia" by Henry Stebbins, Telegraph Press, 1961. Still have it. It's a survey of what was out there in 1961 and earlier, and a good read for those who like classic stuff.

The book has a short chapter "titled "The Pistol In Military Service" that is well done. Korea was over and Vietnam on the horizon. Well written and still valid today. Worth a read if you can find it.

When I was overseas pilots usually carried the Model 15 S&Ws but I saw the odd 1911 and Browning. Nobody seemed to care...

For my part I usually had a Model 15; but I substituted some of Elmer's hot loads for the anemic GI ball ammo when nobody was looking.

Years later I was pricing out a SIG 220 .45 and innocently asked if they had any Browning High Powers in Stock. They had one, a WWII Inglis with tangent sight. The story was that it had belonged to an SF major who carried it in El Salvador. Maybe so. I bought the gun anyway.

Something of the same sort is going on today in civilian life; more than a few people who are not supposed to be carrying--are. The hierarchy in many churches do not want the peasantry carrying. Funny, that.

 

[dandyrandy]

forty five 1911 in caliber photon torpedoes

 

[OLDSTER]

A friend of mine flew a modified Cessna 185 Skywagon spotter plane in Vietnam. He has several good photos of him ready for his next mission carrying his Model 15 Combat Masterpiece. Interestingly, it was carried in a conventional strong-side belt holster; not a shoulder holster.

 

[jinx]

I had an issue 1911 and did not much care for it. A hundred other GI's had it before me. Asked my CO if I could carry my personal Smith model 19. He couldn't very well say no, he was carrying one just like it. He even supplied me with ammunition.

 

[PALADIN85020]

(Click for larger view)

This Walther PPK, vintage of 1941, was a war bring-back from a WWII P-47 pilot who was a friend of mine. I'm not sure how he got it, but he carried as a personal protection pistol during the war.

At any rate, he regretfully died last year, and willed his pistol to me. I'm proud to own it today in his memory.

John

 

[stu1ritter]

I was the division small arms repairman for the 1st Cav.Div in Korea in 1959. I asked my CO if I could carry my Python and he said, no problem. I dyed my brown holster black and rigged up a wire bale (from a govt issued .45 holster) that would let me carry it on my canteen belt. I had brought plenty of .357 ammo with me. I don't know if that would happen in todays Army.

Stu

 

[Drm50]

A friend of mines dad was a MP in German Occupation. I think his full time job was sending guns home. They had dozens. Him being a hunter and gun nut he didn't concentrate so much on military guns as European sporting weapons. He had Lugers, Mausers and such but the Drillings and SxS shotguns always impressed me more. According to him these guns were traded up with food and cigarettes from German civilians. There were restrictions on weapons and people were in a bad way. Food was more important than a gun. My buddies dad went on to become Duputy Sheriff where he added considerably to his gun collection. In 50s & 60s the cops kept about anything they wanted, unless it was evidence in crime.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

As with so many things military, there are "Regulations" and "SOPs", then there is what people actually do. The grunts I served with weren't too attached to their weapons, it broke, got banged up, you turned it in or ditched it for another. On another board a member with a son serving serving in Iraq complained there was a lot of stealing of mail, things he sent him never arriving, heard the same complaint for WWII and Korea vets. In Vietnam, if you were a grunt, badly wounded or injured, required medevacing out of the country, you could forget about your personal possessions. Having a non issue firearm, good luck getting ammunition, forget about getting it repaired. Troops in Vietnam were warned not fire captured weapons in large part due to a covert operation that was sabotaging their ammunition. And there was one set of rules for front line units, another for rear echelons.

 

[smoothshooter]

Leroy Thompson, a well known gun and military author, had a M-60 S&W as a concealed arm. He led Combat Air Police forces.

Their mission was to go outside the air bases and ambush enemy troops before they reached a base they intended to attack.

As for pistols, well, of course, they were emergency sidearms! But several times, my son emptied his 9mm and a spare magazine in fights so close and intense that he hadn't time to reload his rifle or clear a jam. He was fortunate enough not to have to resort to his knife, but did use the pistol on occasion. BTW, he said the 9mm works a lot better than some think. But a lot depends on placement. But he's an excellent, quick shot.

Lt. Col. Jeff Cooper, USMC (ret.) said that handguns do not win wars, but often save the lives of the men who do! I have a letter from Jeff telling how he personally killed three men with pistols. One was a victim of his Colt SAA .45 and the other two ran afoul of his famous .45 auto. Both Colts were his own and were mildly customized.

I think Jeff and Col. Chas. Askins may be the only two gun writers to have actually used pistols in combat and who killed enemy with them. Bill Jordan may have, while commanding Marines cleaning out Japanese pillboxes on Pacific Islands. He told me that he carried a S&W M-1917 .45 revolver and a Winchester M12 shotgun then. But he didn't say if either was his own. I wish now that I'd asked.

Speaking of Askins, many years ago I read an article by Massad Ayoob that happened to make reference to Askins for some reason.
The author stated that Askins psycological profile had most, if not all, of the characteristics of a stone-cold sociopathic killer, who truly enjoyed killing other men, and sought out jobs and situations throughout his life that allowed him to legally indulge himself in that behavior.
Having read many of Askins' magazine articles years ago, and owning his book " Unrepentant Sinner ", it has occurred to me that Askins ( if he was honest in his writing ) never had a moment's remorse over shooting or killing anyone, ever, and thought no more of it than he would have had had he been shooting a rat or a snake.

Thoughts, anyone?

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

I have read that Charlie was rather blunt and to the point, didn't beat around the bush, and simply expressed what many of us feel but keep secret. Jeff Cooper scoffed at PTSD, said if remorse was to be shown it was an adminstrative matter. I went through Army BCT in the Summer of 1967, we had bayonet training-"WHAT'S THE SPIRIT OF THE BAYONET !!!!!" That and shooting at silhouette targets, it was found-correctly IMHO-that it fostered an aggressive attitude. Cf. Patton's Speech.

 

[Rodfac]

During my first tour in Vietnam (Jan-Dec 1970), I was working as a Special Forces assigned Forward Air Controller and flying an Air Force O-1E Birddog whle living in a 5th Spl Forces camp at An Loc in lll Corps, north of Saigon. My USAF issue arms were a CAR15, and a S&W M15. But for the majority of my tour, I carried either a Colt 1911A1, or a Brownining Hi-Power.

The Colt came from within the Spl Forces camp, issued from their armory, and the BHP was the gift of my predecessor, also a Forward Air Controller. But by far, the CAR15 was my daily choice, and I carried it nearly 24/7. I also carried the pistol, but was under no illusion as to its effectiveness when under fire. I liked the Browning more than the other two for its magazine capacity. The CAR, for those of you not familar with the cockpit of an O-1E (L-19 in Army lingo), is the same size as today's Cessna 172, but with a tandom seat arrangement. Pilot up front with an observor's seat in the rear. I slung the CAR from the door ejection handle when flying and drapped a pair of bandoleer's over the butt.

At the end of my tour, when it came my turn to DEROS, the Air Force declared that all personal weapons were not to be shipped home on penalty of an Article 15 offense, a sure fire way to end a career. I left the BHP with one of the Spl Forces guys and have regretted that decision ever since.

Personal weapons, within Spl Forces troops were common and I saw all manner of oddities: Russian Torks, BHP's, revolvers of all types, and even a pristine Luger. No one thought any thing of it, but the Green Berets were always, (and may still be), weapons wise, a law unto themselves...hell we even had a 57mm recoiless rifle in the camp where I lived and fought. But like I said, getting your personal blued steel beauty home again, was entirely another matter...

Best Regards, Rod

 

[Old cop]

I served w/a Marine rifle company as a Navy hospital corpsman and carried a 1911 even though we weren't supposed to be armed. I did see a couple of senior NCOs w/revolvers but most carried the standard 1911.

 

[Muley Gil]

I served w/a Marine rifle company as a Navy hospital corpsman and carried a 1911 even though we weren't supposed to be armed. I did see a couple of senior NCOs w/revolvers but most carried the standard 1911.

Thanks for your service, Doc and...SEMPER FI!

 

[Texas Star]

Speaking of Askins, many years ago I read an article by Massad Ayoob that happened to make reference to Askins for some reason.
The author stated that Askins psycological profile had most, if not all, of the characteristics of a stone-cold sociopathic killer, who truly enjoyed killing other men, and sought out jobs and situations throughout his life that allowed him to legally indulge himself in that behavior.
Having read many of Askins' magazine articles years ago, and owning his book " Unrepentant Sinner ", it has occurred to me that Askins ( if he was honest in his writing ) never had a moment's remorse over shooting or killing anyone, ever, and thought no more of it than he would have had had he been shooting a rat or a snake.

Thoughts, anyone?

I didn't know Askins well, just talked with him a few times, the longest at the Ruger 30th Anniversary luncheon in San Antonio. This was during the 1979 NRA Convention. I was there as a writer, invited by Ruger's then art director and PR guy.

Askins openly offered to smuggle arms to Rhodesia (under UN embargo) and said maybe another thing or two that would be deemed non-PC. Today's media would have a fit over how he spoke of Mexicans. I probably can't repeat that here.

He always impressed me as a very self confident man, and certainly wrote some material that would probably not be published in our present PC times.

I also discussed him with a mutual friend who felt that Askins liked hunting just so he could shoot an animal and see it fall. I think this may have been true, but am not a shrink and didn't ever see a psychological eval. of him.

In the cases he cited where he shot someone, they deserved to be shot, and I wept no tears on reading of these events.

It doesn't bother me a lot to shoot someone if I feel threatened at the time, and I'd seek to kill as many as I could of the enemy in war. Like fighter pilots are proud of their kills and paint red stars, swastikas, etc. on their planes.

Some who post here seem awfully weak when it comes to defending oneself or the nation. Frankly, I think some should be made of sterner stuff.

I recently saw a video defining both a psychopath and a sociopath. I don't know if Askins was either. In his day, cops and soldiers were not supposed to cry if they killed someone.

Unless one has solid data, calling a man a psycho in a public forum seems unwise and unfair. Privately, I can see your point and wouldn't be surprised if Askins was what you say. But probably only he really knew.

 

[old tanker]

As a tanker, the 1911 and the grease gun were supposed to be our issue weapons. Coming out of the field any place big enough to have MPs it was a constant struggle to keep the MPs from trying to confiscate them. The tank did facilitate carrying whatever other weapons we might acquire. In my platoon each tank had an M79. It was well suited to recon by fire missions where its limited range let you shoot in directions firing the .50 cal would be unwise. One CO carried an M2 carbine. There was a smattering of .38 revolvers about, a couple of us had Thompsons. My tank had the worthless and problematic M73 coax replaced with a M19194 (which was what US tanks used for a coax before the sorry civilians at Rock Island saddled us withe M73) As mentioned earlier, life was simpler the further away you were from the flagpole.

 

[Drm50]

I was in two Duster outfits. We didn't have much extra room. Each track had a conex back in Battery area to store our possibles. Only us and the Supply Sgt had keys. They were always broke into and any good stuff we had got stole.

 

[SRG]

On the jump onto Point Salines we were taking fire from the Cubans in the hills on the north side of the runway. I had landed just off the tarmac in a muddy area on the south side of the runway. I got out of my harness and ran to some cover and was about to return fire with my CAR-15 (mine was a Vietnam era XM177). Just before I pulled the trigger I noticed that the muzzle was covered with a big clump of mud. I pull out my 1911 and sat it on top my ruck while I dug out my cleaning kit to rod the barrel. Luckily, there were other Rangers to return fire and I was able to get my rifle back into operation without having to resort to the pistol. Never had to fire a pistol in combat but it was always comforting to know it was there just in case.

 

[DB404]

One of my uncles was an officer on a tank destroyer under Patton in WWII. He told me that most of the crew were gun nuts (as was he) and that several times he had to order the crew to get rid of their souvenirs so that they could fight the destroyer. When they'd take a town they'd use mine detectors to look for guns and also ordered the civilians to turn in all firearms. Anything the guys didn't want out of what they captured, they'd line up half on the curb, half in the street and then drive down the line with the destroyer. My best friend's father was an Army Captain in Combat Engineers in the Pacific in WWII, who told us he couldn't hit a thing with his issue 1911, so he chose to carry his personal Colt Woodsman in his 1911 issue holster through the war. "It wasn't very powerful, but I could hit what I aimed at with it" was his comment.

 

[ddixie884]

I'd pick something I could get ammo for..............