RM Vivas
US Veteran
So I went to visit an associate of mine who had a few revolvers recently come in. Nothing really jumped out at me, but there was one gun that was a bit intriguing.
As you know, I am always on the lookout for orphaned NYPD problem solving equipment. The gun that jumped out at me was a reasonably nice pre-war Military & Police 4-inch SB in .38 Special. What really made it interesting was that it had a 5-digit number hand stamped on the backstrap.
NYPD regulations required that officers have their shield number stamped or acid etched on all their gear and uniform components. There actually used to be a giant carboy of acid in the Equipment Bureau and it was used to acid etch the officers shield number on his uniform components. In a classic image from the late 1940's of guys drawing their gear at the Equipment Bureau, there is an Equipment Bureau man in uniform and you can see right along the edge of his trouser pocket some white numbers that are his acid etched shield number.
Anyway, an unevenly hand stamped number stamped on the butt or backstrap of a revolver is not a guarantee of an NYPD gun. It is, however, a strong suggestion to investigate further, which I did.
Unfortunately, my pre-war NYPD M&P records are very limited; just a few hundred guns.
This is also compounded by the fact that pre-war NYPD guns almost never shipped directly to the NYPD. Instead, the pre-war practice was for the dealers on Iron Alley (Center Market Place behind HQ) to order guns in anticipation of new recruit classes and either sell the guns directly to the recruits or put the guns in the Equipment Bureau on consignment with unsold guns returned to the dealer and, ultimately, S&W. In either instance, the guns would letter to the dealer and not the Department.
While an NYPD-type revolver lettering to Iron Alley is a strong circumstantial argument for being an NYPD gun, its just that: circumstantial.
For that reason I was going to take a pass on this gun. However, a twist of fate intervened and I learned something new. I reached out to a knowledgeable person and they told me that the gun shipped to Herold on 18JAN33 and was part of a 25-gun shipment.
Herold supplied other police departments but a shipment to Herold, a 25-gun shipment and a hand stamped number that looks a lot like a shield number was enough to make me take a $400 plunge.
I'm working on a database of shield numbers and if I ever get it done, it would let me see who had this shield in 1933. I could then look up his appointment date and I strongly suspect it would be within a week or two of this guns ship date.
Anyway, not too bad a gun for pushing 90+ years old:
Cylinder and barrel s/n's match:
A very crisp and quite delicate looking two-line barrel stamping:
What is, almost certainly, a typical New York Police Department shield stamping:
Note the uneven strike and alignment. You'd think the firearms people would have had a jig for doing this but I guess not. One interesting thing that came up with this gun is hinted at in this image; notice the grips are not flush against the frame…….
The grips are numbered to the gun:
But…..when I took the grips off, I found this underneath:
For some reason, our officer chose to take some business cards and use them as shims under the grips. I don't know if he did it to make a bit of a fatter grip or if his grip screw was loose and this let him tighten things up.
The business card is for a hosiery outfit at 242 Canal Street in Lower Manhattan, between Lafayette Street and Centre Street and is 2 blocks south of NYPD HQ (240 Centre St.). Just an interesting little bit of trivia…..
242 Canal Street ca. 1939:
Notice the dome shape roof of a subway station right above the top right corner of the photo identification sign.
The hosiery shop sign for 242 Canal Street from which our imaginative (frugal?) officer got business cards with which to shim his grips.
So, there's another one to go into the collection. Technically it is a likely (VERY likely) NYPD gun, but until I can do further documentation…….. Still, based on my experience and research, I'd be willing to put money on this guy being a mean streets veteran.
Best,
RM Vivas
As you know, I am always on the lookout for orphaned NYPD problem solving equipment. The gun that jumped out at me was a reasonably nice pre-war Military & Police 4-inch SB in .38 Special. What really made it interesting was that it had a 5-digit number hand stamped on the backstrap.
NYPD regulations required that officers have their shield number stamped or acid etched on all their gear and uniform components. There actually used to be a giant carboy of acid in the Equipment Bureau and it was used to acid etch the officers shield number on his uniform components. In a classic image from the late 1940's of guys drawing their gear at the Equipment Bureau, there is an Equipment Bureau man in uniform and you can see right along the edge of his trouser pocket some white numbers that are his acid etched shield number.
Anyway, an unevenly hand stamped number stamped on the butt or backstrap of a revolver is not a guarantee of an NYPD gun. It is, however, a strong suggestion to investigate further, which I did.
Unfortunately, my pre-war NYPD M&P records are very limited; just a few hundred guns.
This is also compounded by the fact that pre-war NYPD guns almost never shipped directly to the NYPD. Instead, the pre-war practice was for the dealers on Iron Alley (Center Market Place behind HQ) to order guns in anticipation of new recruit classes and either sell the guns directly to the recruits or put the guns in the Equipment Bureau on consignment with unsold guns returned to the dealer and, ultimately, S&W. In either instance, the guns would letter to the dealer and not the Department.
While an NYPD-type revolver lettering to Iron Alley is a strong circumstantial argument for being an NYPD gun, its just that: circumstantial.
For that reason I was going to take a pass on this gun. However, a twist of fate intervened and I learned something new. I reached out to a knowledgeable person and they told me that the gun shipped to Herold on 18JAN33 and was part of a 25-gun shipment.
Herold supplied other police departments but a shipment to Herold, a 25-gun shipment and a hand stamped number that looks a lot like a shield number was enough to make me take a $400 plunge.
I'm working on a database of shield numbers and if I ever get it done, it would let me see who had this shield in 1933. I could then look up his appointment date and I strongly suspect it would be within a week or two of this guns ship date.
Anyway, not too bad a gun for pushing 90+ years old:
Cylinder and barrel s/n's match:
A very crisp and quite delicate looking two-line barrel stamping:
What is, almost certainly, a typical New York Police Department shield stamping:
Note the uneven strike and alignment. You'd think the firearms people would have had a jig for doing this but I guess not. One interesting thing that came up with this gun is hinted at in this image; notice the grips are not flush against the frame…….
The grips are numbered to the gun:
But…..when I took the grips off, I found this underneath:
For some reason, our officer chose to take some business cards and use them as shims under the grips. I don't know if he did it to make a bit of a fatter grip or if his grip screw was loose and this let him tighten things up.
The business card is for a hosiery outfit at 242 Canal Street in Lower Manhattan, between Lafayette Street and Centre Street and is 2 blocks south of NYPD HQ (240 Centre St.). Just an interesting little bit of trivia…..
242 Canal Street ca. 1939:
Notice the dome shape roof of a subway station right above the top right corner of the photo identification sign.
The hosiery shop sign for 242 Canal Street from which our imaginative (frugal?) officer got business cards with which to shim his grips.
So, there's another one to go into the collection. Technically it is a likely (VERY likely) NYPD gun, but until I can do further documentation…….. Still, based on my experience and research, I'd be willing to put money on this guy being a mean streets veteran.
Best,
RM Vivas
Last edited:
...Ben
